Is Jesus divine?

The 'Age of Reason' or 'the Age of Enlightenment' to give its other title. How can we understand each other when you deny basic errors in the Bible?

 

Unfortunately leaves fall off branches and branches fall off 2000 year old trees.

 

People who say the biblical testimonies are a fable and there is no God simply don't know what they are talking about. Even when I knew of no God, I wouldn't be so bold as to say there is no God, and speak of things I did not know. But now that I do know, I say it...God lives, and the testimonies are true. I add mine to it, from the spirit of God himself, and not in vain repetition of what has already been spoken or written. I bring it from above for the cause of vigor. Thus it can't be said to be a continuance of a fable. My testimony is fresh from the spirit of heavens God. Like a bird I lodge in the branches of scripture, and find solace. It is my tree and lodge. I confirm its purpose. It is good and true

2000 year old trees loose many branches and leaves fall every year from many. Just so do many scriptures loose their grip. The proof is there for all who open their minds to see.

 

One (1) + Eleven (11)

If our information is correct .. this would make the magic number Twelve (12) - Fancy that Trevor .. 12 disciples - 12 Tribes of Israel - 12 books in the Hebrew Bible - after the 12 minor prophets .. 12 months in the Hebrew Calendar and ...

and lest we forget .. 144 thousand of revelations .. Twelve (12) x Twelve (12) - this how many the witnesses think make it through pearly gate at end of days or some such thing .. so you better be good .. better be nice .. gonna find out who's naughty or nice and restrict your bad-ass from entry. Bad Bad Bad Trevor .. So it is written .. so it shall be done.

This is surely a sign from God --- that only the spiritually blind can not see -- and with that ... I will let the matter be .. on the question of authenticity.
So then - as Holy Moly books go - we have the Jewish Bible OT -- was a bunch of prophets .. told us some stuff about what God wants from us .. what we need to do to please that God .. get into heaven .. be part of the 144,000 .. number among the elect .. where we all want to be .. same story throughout history .. cause they all want to be there too .. and only 144,000 spots.

K -- then we had another Prophet .. some claim this fellow was God YHWH in disguise .. hanging out with the people of earth like in the days of Moses and Abe. This Yeshua fellow told is some things .. how to please God .. get into heaven .. be part of the 144,000.

K--- then we had another prophet .. The Great Mohammad .. not a God but a man of God.. tell us some things we got to do .. be part of the 144,000

K-- then we had another prophet. Was named after the father of HeyZeus .. secret name of Powerful God .. but this Joseph was not God but Man like Muhammad.. told us some more things we got to do .. to be part of the 144,000 ..

and thus my question to you is ... What is new in the latest addition word of God -- what need I do .. that is not listed in the other 3 Holy Books .. to get to the party with 72 virgins .. can't wait ! but unfortunately .. what a tough club to get into .. only 144,000 from every soul that has ever visited earth .. I wonder how many are already occupied .. perhaps this is what this latest addition tells us that is new and different from the past .... The news that the guest list is almost full .. so need to be on super best behavior to be one of the Chosen few.

bout sum up this new religion in a nutshell right ? the message that is new for the chosen few .. who are not spiritually blind .. cause the Devil is right behind . willing to make a deal.

 

You are projecting your dead unbelief onto the truth.

 

Even though some were excommunicated from the Church, they all stood by their testimony till death.

 

I suggest the latest prophet is the Prophet Trump. Ooops.

 

You still haven't detailed why my Nativity post is wrong.

 

I'm not familiar with it.

 

Ol Carrot Top coming down to Georgia ..no doubt with some new revelation .. but lest we put the Cart before the horse .. I really would like to know what the Scriptures from Smith have to say about getting into the 144 club that was not already said by the previous prophets.

Do we have any new info on that front or not ?

Well time to familiarize yourself with the Prophet Joseph and tell us what he says that's new .. I need to know this stuff if I am to get one of the few spots left .. does Smith mention how many spaces are left ? .. any update on that front would be much appreciated.

 

The JW interpretation of the 144,000 is that all people who are saved by Christ’s ransom sacrifice are resurrected to everlasting life on earth. This is God’s promised kingdom. These have a physical body. They are the great multitude talked about in the Book of Revelation. 144,000 are the anointed ones who become spirit beings. Each year they do a memorial of Christs’s death that Christendom refers to as Easter. During the memorial everyone gathers in Kingdom Halls and they pass around bread and wine but only those who are part of the 144,000 will actually eat the bread and drink the wine.

 

Yet you state the Bible is true.
Well I would post it again but you wouldn't believe that the stories of Matthew and Luke contradict themselves, that Matthew actually contradicts himself. That Luke talks of worldwide census which would have been impossible. That's just a few points. But what's the point - you know better.

 

The Prophets, the laws, the God of the Jews, Jesus Christs mission, his gospel of repentance, and the testimonies of his Apostles are true, yes.

Your opinion that this and that make no sense to you, what life was like, distances traveled, which towns existed and when is all without basis in fact. It is simply you rearranging data to attempt to prove that nothing in the Bible is true, especially your being beholden to God. That said, there's nothing unusual or impossible about a Roman census:

"A sixth reason for placing the nativity of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. isthe coincidence of this date with the New Testament account that Jesus was born at the time when a Roman census was being conducted: "There went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the IRoman] world should be registered" (Luke 2:1). Historians have not been able to find any empire-wide census or registration in the years 7-5 B.C., but there is a reference to such a registration of all the Roman people not long before 5 February 2 B.C. written by Caesar Augustus himself: "While I was administering my thirteenth consulship [2 B.C.] the senate and the equestrian order and the entire Roman people gave me the title Father of my Country" (Res Gestae 35, italics added). This award was given to Augustus on 5 February 2 B.C., therefore the registration of citizen approval must have taken place in 3 B.C. Orosius, in the fifth century, also said that Roman records of his time revealed that a census was indeed held when Augustus was made "the first of men"--an apt description of his award "Father of the Country"--at a time when all the great nations gave an oath of obedience to Augustus (6:22, 7:2). Orosius dated the census to 3 B.C. And besides that, Josephus substantiates that an oath of obedience to Augustus was required in Judea not long before the death of Herod (Antiquities I7:4I-45). This agrees nicely in a chronological sense with what Luke records. But more than that, an inscription found in Paphlagonia (eastern Turkey), also dated to 3 B.C., mentions an "oath sworn by all the people in the land at the altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts." And dovetailing precisely with this inscription, the early (fifth century) Armenian historian, Moses of Khoren, said the census that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was conducted by Roman agents in Armenia where they set up "the image of Augustus Caesar in every temple.''. The similarity of this language is strikingly akin to the wording on the Paphlagonian inscription describing the oath taken in 3 B.C. These indications can allow us to reasonably conclude that the oath (of Josephus, the Paphlagonian inscription, and Orosius) and the census (mentioned by Luke, Orosius, and Moses of Khoren) were one and the same. All of these things happened in 3 B.C."

 

Thanks Injeun for presenting that. Josephus is a great source and there are many others. There are many Christian Apologists that would take Trevor to task. If you won't believe.....you just won't believe. Moses had a very difficult task dealing with a fickle people!

 

You're welcome. I have no reason to believe that the Jews labored maniacally to fool anyone. It is Atheists doing the manipulation. Why would Jews, for four thousand years, advance a lie culminating in themselves murdering their own miracle working Savior. It makes no sense, but that's what Atheists want us to believe.

 

I forgot the link: Quoting Chronos, Kairos, Christos: Nativity and Chronological Studies Presented to Jack Finegan, Jerry Vardaman and Edwin Yamauchi, eds. Eisenbrauns:1989, pp. 89-90. https://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2004/12/every-christmas-its-same-newsweek-and.html

 

The Book of Acts has a good example of this. When the Spirit ascended on the worshipers they began speaking in strange tongues, which was a miracle because foreign travelers heard these Jews speaking in their own language. The skeptics explained it away tat they were just drunk. Sometimes unbelievers explain away a miracle by claiming an even bigger miracle. As you said "Jews labored maniacally to fool anyone" would be a bigger miracle than just believing!

 

Sure mate .. can find plenty of folks ... "until their death" swear by claims of Alien visitation .. sounds like you have another good candidate for alien visitation .. This goes back to Genesis 1 and the beliefs of people living at the time of Abraham .... Aliens who they took for Gods.

Lots of wonder workers in the first century BC .. quite a number of other messiah's as well . .. and just a very messianic time .. I am not sure about the story in acts for a number of reasons .. nothing Alien Technology could not account for however if this happened is should have been recorded in Matt.

 

Certainly! The nativity of Jesus is a topic that has fascinated scholars and theologians for centuries. Let’s explore the reasons behind placing it in 3 or 2 B.C.:

1. Historical Context:
   
   • Luke, in his Gospel, associates the birth of Christ with a census conducted by Quirinius (Luke 2:1-5). This census was significant because it led to a major Jewish revolt1.
   • Josephus, the first-century historian, records Quirinius conducting a census in A.D. 6. However, both Luke and Matthew place Jesus’ birth before the death of King Herod in 4 B.C.—a difference of 9 years1.
   • Some scholars suggest that Luke may have made a hermeneutical link between Jesus’ birth and the census of A.D. 6 for theological reasons1.
2. Coincidence with Roman Census:
   
   • One intriguing reason for placing Jesus’ nativity in 3 or 2 B.C. is the coincidence with the New Testament account that Jesus was born during a Roman census.
   • The Gospel of Luke states: “There went out a decree from Caesar…” (Luke 2:1). This aligns with the idea that Jesus was born when the census was being conducted1.
3. Historical Uncertainties:
   
   • The exact date of Jesus’ birth remains uncertain. Some Biblical chronologists propose dates ranging from April 19th to November 17th in 3 B.C.2.
   • The discrepancy between Luke’s account and historical records highlights the complexities of dating events from ancient times.

In summary, the nativity of Jesus continues to be a subject of scholarly debate, blending historical context, theological significance, and the mysterious timing of a Roman census.

1hermeneutics.stackexchange.com2agapebiblestudy.com3vridar.org
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Quirinius certainly did a census on Augustus instructions. That simply included the area Archelaus had ruled to ascertain that the taxes collected by Archelaus - if any - had been handled properly. Archelaus was sent into exile for his handling of the Territory left him - and agreed to - by his father and Rome. Censuses were done in areas. It was impossible for a worldwide census to be undertaken covering several million square miles of the Roman Empire of the time.
Your article quotes 3rd century and 5th century historians.

'Movses’ work pulled together ancient texts in Greek, Assyrian, and Hebrew, oral traditions, and folk tales, and wove them into the classical and biblical tradition to create a unique continuous history of the Armenian people.

To this already heady mix was added the author’s own embellishments, much to the chagrin of modern historians trying to disentangle truth from fiction, iron out inconsistencies, and reconcile the book’s contents with contemporary and later sources.'

Orosius again relied on others for his information. He says that Augustus demand an oath of Allegiance from his subjects. True, but the Jews had a special relationship with the Romans in connection with their adherence to Judaistic monotheism which was respected. Pledging allegiance to Rome would have meant giving up this stance. I think they were content as long as the Jews did not oppose them. Rome knew well of their ferocious attachment to Judaism - Jahweh - and their propensity to violence to maintain that stance.

I can see nothing in that article that refutes my stance. Instead of picking articles I suggest you actually study my points against the time.

The article mentions the 'Res Gestae' and Augustus claiming his census registered - in 3 censuses - between 4 and nearly 5 million people. If these had been a worldwide censuses they should have registered far more. Egypt of the time had a population estimated by historians of the time like Josephus of around 7 million. Res Gestae mentions the census of an area - not the Roman World.

 

I have neither the intellect, desire, nor the patience to study scriptures for conflict, contradiction, or to see how well it aligns with the history of others in the region. Some find it fascinating. But to me it's like watching paint dry. If I read the Bible, it's to gain understanding about salvation, which to me is about the enlargement of ones soul rather than an academic pursuit. In other words, I don't want to know about God. I want to know God. I don't want to read about what the Apostles knew. I want to know what they knew according to the spirit that gave them utterance. And that can't be discovered or verified by archaeology, historical records, or research. You might say that my study or interest is of the spirit, without which all things are dead. That may sound strange, incurious, and myopic. But that's me.

 

The Book of Mormon is another testimony of Jesus Christ, not of a new God or alien invasion. The eleven witnesses swore to having seen the plates, heard the voice of God, and saw the Angel who delivered the plates. Even though some were later excommunicated for a variety of reasons, none of them recanted their testimonies. Make of it what you will. But it is what it is. Joseph Smith's testimony isn't alone.

 

In other words you don't know if the Bible is right or wrong nor are you interested. You read the Bible to gain ' understanding about salvation, which to me is about the enlargement of ones soul rather than an academic pursuit' from a book full of proven mythical stories. Your 'experience' overrides this. You prefer miracles to reality.
You don't know what the Apostles knew. Just what they claim to know. They claim that Jesus was Jahweh's Son who rose from the dead. We have no proof of that except words in a book.'Experiences' happen in many peoples lives. Things that can't be explained. The brain can supply us with our physical and spiritual needs as it sees them. We are still discovering just how the brain functions to keep us going. Billions of memories stored away, things we don't realise we know or want.
You feel the need to believe in spiritual matters so you look for satisfaction in that field. It doesn't matter whether you consciously looked for it in the beginning, it was there. That's like a young person who is uncertain what career to follow suddenly realises their aptitude for a certain subject. You put it down to a religious 'experience'. If that keep you satisfied so be it.

 

Wow .. .. is not the testimony of the 12 that is in question here. I have accepted that these 12 had what can be described as an "out of this world" experience .. and that is as "Alien" as it gets friend .. regardless of whether it is an Alien, a new God, or the old God who's name you do not know and so would have no idea whether or not it was a new God or the Old God ?! --- or an Alien for that matter. Just as Balaam was visited by a Divinity . just as Jacob and Abe.. these folks had no way to know the difference between an Alien and a God .. any more than you .. and what difference does it make at the end of the day ?

So .."make of it what you will" .. but, the question you have deflected from is to tell us what information this visitation brought us .. that we did not have previously ? What is the new revelation about how we get through the pearly gates.. put ourselves right with this God .. who's name you do not know.

 

Funny how you refer to God as alien to you, rather than you as alien or a stranger to God I guess the main thing to be gained from the restoration of Gods true Church is the authority to carry out his purposes in these latter days. From the authority to baptize, give the gift of the Holy Ghost, and confer the Priesthood, to the carrying out of sacred Temple ordinances such as marriage and family sealings and baptisms for the dead.