The Carbon Tax will spell the end for Bob Brown and the Greens

Sorry. I guess my sarcasm isnt very obvious. The greens sacrifice nothing. They take and take and take, it is death to industry by a thousand cuts.

Autralia needs timber and timber products and yet the amount of forests that is reserved from harvesting continues to increase. I must have learned something wrong at school, because i thought timber, fish and farming were renewable. Also the amount of subsidies industry receives must pale in comparison to the cost of running national parks each year. All of which is wasted as the national parks produce nothing at best. Disasters at worst.
I wonder how well the timber industry is going up in the pilliga scrub since bob carr turned 300 000 ha of cypress pine scrub, or how well the timber industry will be going in the red gum around denniliquin and barham in a few years. Greens lie towns die.
Yes the mining industry is a one trick pony. Dig stuff up sell it and profit. Its awesome. Do you have something against profit ? Can you think of a better time to be selling resources, financial crisis and all ?

 

Bob Brown and his minions remind of that saying about the Democarats who believed in the 'fairies at the bottom of the garden! (ref :Hansard, June 1999).

The Greenies are sounding more and more like the those same 'fairies'.

 

Timber is renewable, as is food. Coal is renewable as well, you just need to wait a couple of million years. If you destroy a forest, that is not a sustainable practice for an industry. Do you have -any- proof at all that Australia is "short of timber"? Are you suggesting that we sell all our national parks? FFS, Greenpeace funds programs of sustain forestry in places like New Guinea, any claim that either the Greens, or the environment movement at large want to completely shut down the industry, is pathetically ignorant.

Profit for who? Foreign multi-nationals? Yay! Bob Brown was complaining that too much of the profits from the mining boom were going OFF SHORE, not that profits are being made.

"National parks produce nothing"... wow. What a compelling argument for clearing land! Trees are better off as woodchips, DUH! It's all so clear now!

 

No... it's a minority government. Independents are not part of the executive. It's not a coalition.

 

The timber industry does not destroy forests. Yes i do have proof. if we ever import wood. We are short of it. No i am not suggesting we sell out parks. You brought up the issue of subsidies. My point was that national parks cost more to maintain than industry receives subsidies, and produce nothing while industy does. And with the huge increase in national parks tenure over the last 20 years no animals are coming off the endangered list. It seems greens are more interested in acquiring more land for national parks than they are for actually looking after what they got.
I heard in person from bob brown that he wants to shut down all native logging in australia.
Where woodchips are produced, it is because there is an abundance of low quality wood that is not good enough for sawlog. Which is worth more. What do you have against woodchips. Also there is a diffrence between the timber industry and the clearing of land. The timber industry needs the trees to grow back. Its important to understand the diffrence.
In regards to mining. It doesnt matter who makes the profit. The greens will be angry about it

 

Please. I live in a lumber and coal state. We have a Green Party and the even get a few percentage points of the State vote. But that's like 3% at most, do you think that measly minority of radical nutjobs should have some voice in public policy? hell no. Not in America.

But I know exactly what Greens are about and the damage they would do to individual towns and counties in the State of Ohio with thier anti-lumber/anti-hunting/anti-man taking a leak against an old oak mentality.

They cost small hunting towns, who only have a semblance of "economy" for a couple months out of the year, hundreds of thousands of dollars when they drive out hunters from the woods. Ruining the hunts.

They attack and burn logging equipment costing millions, and many of these loggers are small business outfits, not giant conglomerates clearing the land. They own a small piece of property for generations and pass it on father to son and replant behind them because they only have so much property to work with. They grow their own product.

I know what the Greens are about and I'm glad the whackos voice is silent in regards to real public policy at the State level.

The fact that their whackjob ideas are even mainstream enough to be seriously considered is frightening. Little minority groups like that are the ones that destroy entire economies through their radicalism.

Look at California. The Greens Rule there through the auspices of the Democrat Party and they are driving out anything and anyone who doesn't follow their strict canon law that makes it impossible to make a profit.

California is everything World Leftism wants to achieve. Everything, and it's a mess. People are fleeing from it by the millions every year. California is a nation unto itself, that competes on a Global Level and it has been corrupted by Globalist Leftist Values and has become the American Representative of Social Democracy and it's rotten to the core.

A large part of that is radical environmentalist policies. Australia could face the same fate.

 

I severely doubt that, the stand for something, a philosophy.
I tend to think that having captured half of Labor Left or so they'll act quite well in the Senate.
http://on.fb.me/ipVbk8
Also having the sky not fallen in for 2 years after the carbon tax has been passed, Labor and the Greens will be battling IR reform from Abbott.

 

@SiliconMagician: This is not America. I have no interest in you telling me you know "exactly what" are Greens party is about. I have lived in this country my whole life, I know what they are about. There is a big difference between the kind of radical environmentalists you're describing and the greens political movement. Your Democrats are not the same as our Labor, your republicans aren't the same as our Liberals, and your Greens sure as hell aren't the same as our Greens. If you think a carbon price, aka an ETS, is a "radical leftist policy", you are sadly delusional.

@Grrrrr: We cannot possibly produce every kind of timber, that is a silly argument. Comparing the costs of a public National park, to the subsidies of a private company...? Amazing. Again, obviously all trees a better off as woodchips, because that's the only way they are valuable. "There is an abundance of low grade wood", therefore it must be turned into valuable woodchips. Of course! Ironically enough, with an ETS trees will actually have -real- value just for being alive. Gunns had to shut down its pulp mill because of economic downturn in Japan, its main export market. Nothing at all to do with anything happening in Australia. I do believe that Gunns has promised to stop cutting down native forest for woodchipping, within the next however many years. Due to enivronment lobbying pressure of course, but still there we have it, compromise, SHOCK! HORROR! Your assumption that industries cannot self-destruct is stupid. Without regulations there would be absolutely no reason that the timber industry wouldn't just consume all the resources as fast as possible, make huge profits, and then move onto some other industry. The idea that all industries automatically want to protect their long term future does not wash. This idea that greens are against anyone making a profit is just ridiculous, that's all that needs to be said.

 

LOL

OK, whatever flaots your boat

 

Just informing you of the facts

 

What facts?

Thta the ALLP/Greens and Independent sell-outs formed a coalition to take government?

 

A minority government is not the same thing as a coalition.

 

Close enough for me, thanks.

 

Mkay so I suppose everytime the coalition wins government that is actually a minority government. It's not the same thing, if you like to think it is that's up to you, but it's factually incorrect.

 

Bit like the whole "we don't elect the PM" facts?

The fact is the only way for the ALP to hold government was to form a patchwork coalition with the greens and independents.

 

@Grrrrr: We cannot possibly produce every kind of timber, that is a silly argument. Comparing the costs of a public National park, to the subsidies of a private company...? Amazing. Again, obviously all trees a better off as woodchips, because that's the only way they are valuable. "There is an abundance of low grade wood", therefore it must be turned into valuable woodchips. Of course! Ironically enough, with an ETS trees will actually have -real- value just for being alive. Gunns had to shut down its pulp mill because of economic downturn in Japan, its main export market. Nothing at all to do with anything happening in Australia. I do believe that Gunns has promised to stop cutting down native forest for woodchipping, within the next however many years. Due to enivronment lobbying pressure of course, but still there we have it, compromise, SHOCK! HORROR! Your assumption that industries cannot self-destruct is stupid. Without regulations there would be absolutely no reason that the timber industry wouldn't just consume all the resources as fast as possible, make huge profits, and then move onto some other industry. The idea that all industries automatically want to protect their long term future does not wash. This idea that greens are against anyone making a profit is just ridiculous, that's all that needs to be said.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Woodchips is people doing the best with what they got. Because its not high enough quality for anything else. It has a real value. Ironically with an ETS. trees will not have value... Who gets paid when they remain standing ?. And if someone does get paid, where does the money come from ?

Yes the person who took over gunns is a horrible manager.

You seem to like the greens, and also compromise. Yet the greens are incapable of compromise.

The idea that the timber industry would use all its resource then move onto some other industry is stupid. Even if it were possible. It would no longer be the timber industry. The only lack of resources is a result of excluding the industry from the resource, in the form of national parks and reserves.

The idea that the greens are against people making a profit is ridiculous ? You are almost right there. The greens are against anyone other than the greens making a profit, and it takes a hell of a lot of those subsidies you mentioned for any green project to even produce anything.

 

Just because there are trees that are "low quality" doesn't mean you have to chop them down and turn them into woodchips, ffs. Do you even know what an ETS is?

And you're the one defending them.

If the greens cannot compromise, why are you worried about a carbon price?

There is nothing to prove that an industry cannot self destruct. That is your claim and you have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Of course it is possible to run out of native forests to cut down.

Bigotted comment. Coal is subsidised more than all renewable energies combined. Coal is an old established industry, renewables are a relatively new industry, and yet coal still receives enormous subsidies from the government.

I don't know if there's really any point in continuing this back and forth when you simply state your own personal and heavily biased opinions as facts. There is nothing to debate. You hate the greens and I'm not going to change your mind. Probably nothing would change your mind. I have never even voted for the greens. I have voted Labor, Liberal and Independent. I will not vote for a Liberal party led by Abbott. I support an ETS, whether it was Howards, Rudds, Turnbulls or the current multi-party one. I am utterly sick of all the absolute rubbish coming from the far right in this so called "debate". Abbott is flushing Menzies' party down the toilet. The Liberal party is not the bloody Tea Party, it is disgusting what he is doing to it. Barnaby Joyce is an idiot, Abbott is an idiot, the current leadership of the coalition has no credibility. I would vote for Gillard or Brown a million times before I voted for Abbott or Joyce.

 

You also state your opinion and heavily biased opinion as fact. I will admit i am biased. That does not make me wrong. You are also heavily biased. Will you admit it ?

 

wow. i usually just read. sorry about the confusing post.

 

Your argument was that national parks are economically worthless. I said under an ETS they are not, I assume you understand. I do not hate woodchips. I hate that native forest (the small amount we have left) is destroyed for the sake of producing woodchips. I completely reject that native forests have no intrinsic value over plantations.

What is your point then? You were arguing in favour of Gunns operations just a few posts earlier. You're defending a company whose mismanagement according to you have "probably ruined the timber industry in Tasmania". I don't know what to say to that other than don't defend them then.

This is not supported by any evidence. The fact is that Gunns and environmental groups have reached a compromise. Gunns agreed to stop further fell clearing of native forests.

Why can't it happen? You were the one that made the claim that all industries are inherently sustainable because it is in their interest to be so, as far as I'm concerned it's up to you to prove that true and not me to prove it false.

No I didn't ignore it. I reject its relevance. I don't believe that there is any imperative to allow the complete obliteration of Australia's biodiversity for the sake of one industries profits. But it's just an opinion.

No it does not "seem fair". Coal is an old established industry, why should it receive any subsidies at all? It is touted as "cheap" energy, why do we need to subsidise something that is cheap? Or is it only cheap because we subsidise it?

Everyone has bias. However what I said was that you state your personal opinions as fact. No I don't believe I do this. Your bias against the left in general is quite strong evidenced by comments such as this: "Yet the greens are incapable of compromise." I do not claim that this is true of the foresting industry. You agree that the industry in Tasmania has been badly mismanaged, I think that a sensible compromise has been made. However whether they stick to that is a completely different matter. I saw something in the news only today about illegal felling of native forests. If it's true it clearly demonstrates that the industry still has big problems. I don't know if the alleged illegal activities were by gunns btw, didn't specify.

 

LOL

The ALP is so far down the (*)(*)(*)(*)ing drain it is blocked up!

What a looney rant.

 

It's very sad that far right-wing hacks like yourself are taking over the Liberal party.

 

LOl you're loosing it mate.

Perhaps you can give us a list of things that make Gillard so credible!

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

 

How sad that the likes of Menzies and Howard have given way to Abbott. Gillard is "meh", but Abbott is horrendous.

 

I agree.

But you would vote for Gillard because she is so credible, your words.

What makes her so credible?