Women in Combat? Why? (Part II)

Yeah the fobbits would make us fill sandbags before eating. The sandbags were then suppossed to be sent out to the BPs and ECPs. One day my squad was back on refit and they actually had a sign saying that all the sandbags were being sent to our BP. We found this hilarious but were pumped cause we thought we wouldn't have to make anymore sandbags. Of course we never ever got them and spent the next couple weeks making thousands of sandbags.

 

An aircraft commander/PIC sits in the left seat, unless it's in a helicopter...then they sit on the right. Gov is a flyer afterall, probably the origin of her take charge attitude in terms of ground based vehicles.

 

I don't know about you, but the last person I let drive when on the road is a pilot. Kind of like relying on a navigator for ground night nav--not real smart unless your goal is to get lost in the dark.

 

Are you saying that pilots are not good drivers? I don't think I've heard of that stereotype before.

 

If, for whatever reason, a US Air Force officer were to ride with me in my vehicle when I was in the Army; that particular officer would then be in charge of the vehicle according to military rank structure. If, the officer had any questions that I might be able to answer, then I most likely will answer those questions depending on the circumstances, while awaiting the reasonable and lawful orders of the said Air Force officer who was placed in charge of the vehicle. Translation: if you are an enlisted man, you took an oath and part of that oath required you to follow the lawful orders of the officers appointed over you. It doesn't always matter if that officer is an Air Force officer or an Army officer. You still respect the rank and the authority that comes with the rank of a commissioned officer whether it be in the Army or any other branch of the military. Military bearing, discipline, professionalism and respect for the rank and authority of officers is expected under military law and regulation.

 

Buzz kill...

 

Well, what I posted above, is the way I was programmed and trained when I served. You live and die by the oath you take when you swear in as a soldier in the military. "I solemnly swear..." is serious business. You are held to a higher standard when you become a professional serving in the Armed Forces.

 

When you're driving on the ground, the VC always sits in the passenger seat. They have more important things to do than steer...

 

Billet supersedes rank. I don't care if a general shows up in my hummer, I'm in charge of that ride.

 

An aircraft commander is designated for all USAF flights. The AC must be a pilot and an officer that has graduated from a formal aircraft commander course. This individual is in command of all military personnel on the aircraft regardless of rank. Now I know you were in the Marines because your referencing billet as personnel, and typically that's a Navy/Marine use of the term. In the Air Force a billet can also refer to quarters. More to the point I find it difficult to believe that a non-commissioned vehicle commander would ever outrank a commisioned officer even as a passenger. I want that in writing. Post the formal policy which places the vehicle commander above anyone else regardless of rank.

 

He doesn't "outrank" him, but he's the vehicle commander - that's his billet, and a billet is a designation of authority that is conferred upon someone by a superior officer.

As for official policy, hell, I'm not even going to look. I'm sure I could find you some sort of legal justification for it, but it's more of an implied thing. But it would be amusing to watch some POG officer try and take over a team of grunts outside the wire. Talk about lost in the sauce...

 

Yes there is command authority that exists outside of rank, but this is much more formalized in the Air Force in the position of aircraft commander...who as mentioned earlier is a pilot and a commissioned officer by requirement. The aircraft commander has authority over everyone while on that aircraft regardless of rank.
If the Marine Commandant himself was on my bird, he would take orders from me, however the obligation of respect to a superior officer is still assumed. I did on many occasions transport 2 stars and above.

 

No, I'm saying I've seen how they handle rentals when TDY and had to do the paperwork for it because it was my name on the paperwork. (What can I say? Young and inexperienced. But not stupid!)

 

We ran into that issue a few times. The last few months of deployment we we would put specialists (like myself) in the TC seat or as Patrol Leader. Ran into some issues while outside the wire and had to remind them who was in charge.

 

Just because you are infantry doesn't make you "special" or "above" or any better than anybody else. You took an oath, you solemnly swore and if you choose to violate the lawful orders of an officer and your chain of command, you are risking paying the consequences either via article 15 or court martial. Nobody is above the law in civilian or military life. Not to mention, a lack of discipline is not a characteristic of a professional soldier. Having a lack of discipline can have serious consequences for yourself and your buddies on the battlefield as well. Discipline does not mean of course to blindly follow orders, but discipline and following lawful orders is required in the military. I have heard of a few infantry guys getting article 15'd and/or court martialed because they thought they were in charge when they weren't in charge at all. I would certainly not want to have a bad record from the military following me around for the rest of my life.

 

It does when they rely on you to keep them alive by doing the job you are trained to do. When you get a POG officer that rolls outside the wire once in a blue moon in your truck, and they all of a sudden then that that their rank makes them better at your job than you, isn't going to bode well. We rolled outside the wire almost every day, we knew the area, we knew the TTPs of the enemy, we had a good solid hold on when (*)(*)(*)(*) just wasn't right, etc etc. You don't get that knowledge from going outside the wire a few times or rank.

I've told a few officers "Sir, with all due respect, let me my job."

 

You sound like a career NCO. There's a very important distinction here that I want to address. I think many SNCOs today live in a dream world. Most of them grew up in a peacetime military where laws and regulations were the order of the day. These men and women can't make sound judgement calls and learn when to enforce arbitrary regulations and when not to. These are the types that jump all over grunts for not being clean shaven or having "clean" weapons when they return to the COP after a month of combat operations. These SNCOs couldn't understand that to these grunts "discipline" isn't cleaning the outside of your weapon or wearing clean cammies, its staying awake on an OP after 72 hours of no sleep or properly providing overwatch through a danger area. They think they're somehow teaching discipline, and don't realize that all they're doing is embittering and alienating good soldiers/Marines. Rules and regulations certainly have their place, but blind obedience to them is a complete and utter failure of leadership. All the best SNCO's and Officers I knew understood that at times you had to "bend" the rules and all the worst ones thought combat deployments were identical to the dirll fields.

You jumped on this thread with this ridiculous speech on obeying regs. We were playfully discussing driving and flying. That's why I called you a buzz kill.

 

There is positional authority, but it's derived from a superior and it's only valid within the scope granted. I'm surprised at how informal it seems to be in the Marines as compared with the Air Force at least. Must be a Navy thing.

 

That's not all that surprising. Not to make a sweeping generalization but many pilots do have a tendency to speed.

 

Couldn't of said it better myself, somehow though I think that between my example above and your explanation, he still won't get it.

You don't have to tell a grunt to clean his weapon, he knows how important it is. I got laid into when we went into a chow hall on a bigger FOB for being too dirty and not having my SAW on safe. This was on two different occasions, but same FOB. First time, my team leader (who ALWAYS had our backs) laid into him for getting onto us about being dirty.

The second time with the SAW was my favorit. It was an E-7 type, said "soldier! Why is your weapon not on safe! Correct that now!" I confusingly looked at my TL, he gave me a "look"....so, I corrected it. The look on that E-7's face when I racked the charging handle back was priceless.

 

It's not informal so much as it's flexible. A 54 man Infantry platoon could have 17 billets. When operating in vehicles they could have even more. The jobs and responsibilites of each billet can vary significantly based on terrain, mission, and equipment. Rank isn't always the most important. You could have a senior E-3 operating as a squad leader and a junior E-4 operating as a team leader. Most smart platoon sergeants/commanders would put them in different squads, but you never know. A lot of this is based on the somewhat broken promotion system. I imagine that flying has a lot more structure when it comes to command/billet just because the plane is always there and usually has same/similar crew requirments.

 

Classic, I've seen the old SAW/M240 safety one several times. That's perfect example. I've even seen SNCOs with their dicks so hard about "regulations" they've refused to even listen to someone explaining what those regs are. Silliness like that is a major reason why I happily EASed and am in college now.

 

You just don't get it. I was lawfully designated the commander of that vehicle by a superior officer. A Marine private guarding a nuclear silo doesn't let an officer through unless he has proper authorization, and a Marine team-leader doesn't surrender command of his team or his vehicle to some POG officer unless he is lawfully ordered to do so by his chain of command.

And we are special. We're good looking, too.

 

My unit never had that problem. Then again, POGs rarely, if ever, came to visit us, so that might explain it. We did have one POG attached to our unit, though; he was a comm guy; never went outside the COP; God, we ripped on him so bad.

 

Preach brother!

Most of the smart Marines and Soldiers **** after their first enlistment because of that stupid sh*t.