”Moderates” who won’t condemn Muslims cutting off hands, are they “extremists”?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by FreedomSeeker, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Didn't the Jesus character say that you should gouge out your eyes and cut off your hand to keep from sinning? Darn right he did.

    Matthew 5:29-30(TLB) = 29 So if your eye—even if it is your best eye![a]—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. Better for part of you to be destroyed than for all of you to be cast into hell.30 And if your hand—even your right hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. Better that than find yourself in hell.

    So, get to gouging and cutting or you will end up in hell. If you don't obey you don't love Jesus and he carries a mean grudge.
     
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  2. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The last verse of Matthew 5: (after countless other do's and do nots)

    "48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect."

    I will indeed gouge out my eye before I claim to be as perfect as God.

    Thats the real problem with quoting scripture. Its rarely meaningful without context. In this case, you quoted a few sentences from a long sermon by Jesus, and in doing so, skipped over the point He was trying to make so you could make your own. Not unlike many pastors and preachers and preists are like to do to get folks to donate more money...

    Also, the translation you quoted said 'hell', but the original (literal) specified 'gehenna' which is not historically synonomous with hell (just fyi).
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  3. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why is it true believers claim any certainty for anything in scripture when we know aeons of mistranslation, expurgation and downright forgery constitute a substantial portion of that collection of myths known as the bible. The human terror of uncertainty and absolute terror of being mortal may have something to do with it but I suspect that’s not a full explanation.

    As to taking passages out of context to support an argument I’ll happily do it myself as it’s been a weapon fired from the pulpit since forever.
     
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  4. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    Let me poll these three people and I’ll get back to you.
     
  5. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, you communicate with The Father, Son & Holy Ghost? We’ll all be interested to hear what they have to say.
     
  6. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    Talked to them all and they already know you’re an agent of SATAN!
     
  7. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Flattery will get you nowhere.
     
  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because belief is faith. A part of that faith is in accepting that God wouldn't allow His word to be altered beyond usefullness.

    Deliberately decontextualizing something to remake its point is incredibly dishonest... What purpose is there in fighting lies with more lies?
     
  9. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A thorought study of the bible, especially the Old Testament, reveals we have inherited a series of writings in which alterations, substrations and additions over the centuries have been enacted by mebers of our own species. If the is a God what makes you imagine it would :-
    A: Speak in terms you could even begin to understand.
    B: What makes you imagine such a being would reveal anything like the truth?
    C: Bother to address our species considering according to stock standard Christian theology the taint of original sin (part of God’s omniscient design anyway) was redeemed on the cross by God torturing his son. Yet still our species commits intold evil. And don’t take the convenient cop out of Satan being responsible. Satan, if you swallow Christian theology was the Almight’s creation anyway.
    The lost could go on .
    D.How to you know you theory of an “All loving Gos” isn’t just wishful thinking?
     
  10. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He would, logically, speak in terms we could understand because otherwise theres no purpose in speaking at all. I've no doubt theres things we can't understand, which is likely why He leaves so many questions unanswered.
    Its also likely that part of our 'journey' is to discover some things for ourselves, possibly even create our own answers to certain questions.

    Faith.

    Of course its possible that God is a malevolent liar and seeks to mislead us, but theres nothing we could do to prevent that if it were the case. We'd simply be F'd.

    What motive could God have for lying, when He could simply force us to do whatever He wants, or 'poof' us from existance?

    Free Will. If we're not free to make a wrong choice, we have no choice.

    I don't. Not in the 'verifiable' sense of knowing something. I have faith. I feel it to be true.
     
  11. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The biblical God character is a scumbag. He is far from perfect unless it is being a scumbag. He is perfect at that.
     
  12. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I took you for an atheist... but thats quite a lot of animosity toward something that doesnt exist. Perhaps you're an 'anti-theist'?
     
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  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wish they would speak up, but probably like the Christians in Germany when Hitler was killing Jews stayed silent, probably in fear they woudl be next, or the I don't want to get involved mentality

    they need to forget these parts of the koran, they are like the OT, Jews ignore this stuff, so can they

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+24:16&version=KJV

    "

    Leviticus 24:16 King James Version (KJV)

    16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
    "

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+20:10&version=KJV

    "
    Leviticus 20:10 King James Version (KJV)
    10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
    "

    many other examples
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  14. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    but the God you believe in gave those orders correct, the fact he may of later changed his mind doesn't negate that

    but yes, it was the Jewish OT that had those quotes and both Christianity and Musliminity evolved from that religion - thus same God

    my point is Jews ignore those words from God, Muslims should too
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  15. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To use another decontextualisation 2nd Thessalonians Ch 2 : V 11 may shed some light.
     
  16. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For recontextualization: 2 Thesalonians was written by Paul, and was intended for a group of Christians in Thessalonica who had stopped living their daily lives because they were certain that the second coming was at hand. Basically the first Christian 'end of the world' cult.

    It seems to me that Paul was trying to unravel their 'cultiness' by getting them to look with more scrutiny at whomever was deceiving them. The difference between "
    shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged" and
    'shall a false messenger send to them a working of delusion claiming God's authority, for their believing the lie, they may be judged' is only a signifigant one to a brainwashed cultist. In any event, that is indeed one good reason why God may try to decieve us (or allow us to be deceived)- to get us to more vigilantly scrutinize against even worse deceipt.

    Of course its also possible that Paul was wrong. Or it wasn't Paul. Or it wasn't translated accurately. Or God is evil and trying to decieve us. The Bible is ultimately a personally interpreted text. As with everything important in life, its neither simple nor easy.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  17. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with your analyis, as far as we can know. I suspect it wasn’t Paul. A lot of Paul isn’t, which takes us back to the verse and what it may tell us used out of context.
     
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  18. Moshty

    Moshty Member

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    There over 60 requirements for the theft and the thief to fulfill for the law to allow the cutting off of his hand. Which is why most Muslims have two hands.
     
  19. TrackerSam

    TrackerSam Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whatever the Bible claims that Jesus or God said, is pure fiction. Neither one of them wrote the Bible
     
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  20. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Americans execute people. Enough said!
     
  21. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    They will say the same thing.
     
  22. Migrunt

    Migrunt Banned

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    The extremist is the one that chops your head off. The moderate is the one that ties your hands behind your back and sharpens the sword.
     
  23. Lee S

    Lee S Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    I am not sure why, in the context of the Muslim culture, you are assuming that removing the hands of thieves is barbaric. If you have not lived in that culture, it may seem barbaric, but I would contend that catch and release practices of theives and thugs which allows the barbarians to roam freely about society is pretty barbaric as well.

    And let's be clear about this. Every single person in an Islamic society knows exactly what the penalty for theft is. The penalty is reinforced to children in the home, taught at school, and punishment is meted out in a public square immediately before Muslims go to mosque. And it isn't as if there isn't some leniency built into the system. On first offense, a written reprimand is given in which it is made 100% clear that stealing anything else will result in a hand being removed. Exceptions are made for the simple minded and those with mental illness.

    Also, the feeling of the people in a Muslim country, is that if you steal something, the police will take it extremely seriously, they will find you, you will be found guilty, and you will receive punishment with absolute certainty. Since the police department are not bogged down with tens of thousands of petty theft claims like they are here, the police detectives will treat every theft with greater dilligence than most police departments here will treat a murder.

    If you do not like their way of dealing with crime and if you do not feel the benefit of a crime free society, then do not steal in a Muslim country and if that is too much to ask, don't even go to a Muslim country.

    I do not know what else to say other than it works for them.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The question is rhetorical methinks ... sans to those who belong in the funny farm.

    Anyone who condones or supports making law on the basis of "God says so"/ religious belief. - is an extremist.
     
  25. Migrunt

    Migrunt Banned

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    Doesn't work to well for women.
     

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