“We have essentially repealed Obamacare.”

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lee Atwater, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes, and it proves my point exactly, there are issue with the ACA, and republicans refuse to fix it as they could instead blame democrats

    republicans have controlled congress the last 7 years, if anything was broke in a bill, ONLY they could allow it to be fixed, as they control Congress

    this is why I say we need a bill that BOTH sides work on and vote for, so when issues appear after it's passed regardless who is in power, both will work to fix them, not just point to whats broke and say "it's their fault"

    republicans are now the last to touch healthcare, so it's all on them

    what they need to do is honestly invite democrats to work with them to design a new bill, one they both can take pride in
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
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  2. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Republicans already killed it, were now just waiting to see what they replace it with, if they do not replace it with something better, in 3 years dems take control, revive it and make it better - then next time republicans in power they try again to destroy it

    removing the individual mandate will only make the push for a public option stronger

    republicans only real option is a new bi-partisan bill
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  3. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Is it an offer if you are dictated to have it? I still stand by the spirit of the Republic(even if my proposed reforms are to change the landscape of the government, but the American Mission is still the same.) Hell to the no to the Mandate, we'll find different solutions than insulting our American heritage.
     
  4. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    Trump does not need to do anything more. With the mandate repealed, it's now in the hands of the American people.

    There is likely to be a mass exodus and Obamacare will implode under it's own weight. Only the most foolish and the extremely wealthy would voluntarily pay the outrageously high premiums that would result from a mass exodus. It's coming, just watch.

    --pete--
     
  5. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    conservative wanted the individual mandate, Obama wanted a public option, it will be hard for republicans to ever try to push a individual mandate again, so that is good news
     
  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all the repeal of the mandate will do is cause insurers to raise premiums and deductibles, so any cost increases will be on Trump going forward
     
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  7. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    That would certainly be great!

    I don't think it will happen, though. But I would be very happy if I were proven wrong.
     
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  8. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. By eliminating the mandate, Trump gave the American people freedom of choice. So any cost increases will be on the American people who decided to opt-out of a what they feel is an undesirable system. If enough people follow suit, we will be one giant step closer to solving the root cause of our broken healthcare system (the outrageous costs).

    --pete--
     
  9. Vet1966

    Vet1966 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another piece of cut and paste fake news.

    The individual mandate is a tax to make sure that everyone MUST participate in Obamacare - with the mandate gone, so aren't all of the people who don't want to pay ridiculous insurance and copay costs. Obamacare is walking dead - it's only a matter of time before this sick behemoth is gone - either through repeal or plain old neglect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  10. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To state the obvious, because that is the way a moral society works. It never ceases to amaze me how conservatives whine like hell when someone who needs help gets a benefit from the government until the time they need the benefit and then they shut their mouths.
     
  11. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    And there is the age old problem with the left! They simply can't differentiate between TAX PAYER and Government! They think a government that makes NO MONEY can actually provide them with financial care! All these centuries and the left still have learned that the Government can give you nothing without stealing it from your neighbors and in many cases lessen their lives and saddle them with undue poverty to make undeserving others lives easier!

    Socialism = Parasites
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    True and Obamacare made it worse. Everything government does makes things more expensive. There are some things that can be done to make health care less expensive but selling overpriced insurance isn't one of them.
     
  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yeah... they can now choose to have you pay for their ER if they ever get in an accident.
     
  14. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    What happens to Obamacare now that the entirety of the US population no longer has to choose between buying health insurance and paying thousands of dollars in tax penalties?
     
  15. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    I've got news for you. You were already paying for the majority of their Obamacare premiums in the form of subsidies. Even if they keep their Obamacare the lowest plan typically has a $6,000 max out of pocket cap. That means YOU pay the majority if they have a serious health issue costing tens of thousands of dollars.

    There's just no way around it. In a socialist system such as Obamacare, those with higher income will always pay for those with very low income because the lower income folks don't make much more money than to pay for basic living expenses.

    That's why the only true fix for our broken healthcare system is to address the root problem which is the outrageously high costs of products & services. The sooner Obamacare self destructs, the sooner we can address the real problems. We can each do our part by opting-out of Obamacare, but only if you don't have any immediate healthcare needs.

    --pete--
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  16. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    And the Mandate was paying for part of it. Now you're stuck with the whole bill.

    So.... before Obamacare deductibles didn't exist or what?

    I don't mind paying into a system in which everybody pays according to their income and the risk is shared. I'm talking about your being fine with somebody not paying a penny into the system, and then using it when they need it.

    And how does it work in a non-socialist system? If you don't have the cash to pay for the kid's operation... tough luck... your kid dies?

    Well... here we agree in part. Yes. The way to address the high costs is a single-payer system. A single payer has all the leverage to negotiate fair prices. And while it's true that if Obamacare fails, that would lead very rapidly to a single-payer system, there are two problems: One is that it's unlikely that Obamacare will self-destruct. With idiotic moves like doing away with the individual mandate, people will suffer, providers will suffer, equipment manufacturers will suffer... but it's a solid system. It will continue for a long long time.. As a matter of fact, people are signing up in record numbers now. The second problem is that it's the most painful way imaginable to bring us, in the end, into a single payer system. In the end, there will be so much suffering that people will demand single payer. But we could transition in a much smoother cleaner way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  17. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but the part about me being stuck is incorrect because I'm now out of the system. It's those who remain in the system who are stuck paying.


    Ok, we kind of agree, but you are focused upon a solution that changes "who pays" or who negotiates fees instead of getting to the real solution of getting the costs down by means of more choices and government deregulation.

    For example, I've mostly pulled out of the healthcare system for about 20 years and actually did better using Dr. Google and my own research (books) than following doctor's advise. In 20 years I've only needed access to anti-biotics and for that, I had to visit a doctor twice in 20 years. I do not want access to the latest technology such as organ transplants and other highly technical & ultra expensive procedures. So I only require an out of pocket payment system with very limited services and some kind of catastrophic coverage that is also very limited. In order for this to happen we need less government regulations and more freedom of choice.

    Other people who want all the latest technology and the least amount of out of pocket costs should have choices for that, but to be fair, their relatively high premiums should reflect the higher quality & quantity of services.

    As for "single payer" or other payment schemes, I don't think they get to the core problem.

    --pete--
     
  19. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    ==========
    Excerpt from your article above...

    New Policy, New Marketplace
    The subsidies do mean some low-income people will pay almost nothing for insurance, while higher-income people will pay the full market price.
    =========

    And that's my point. For the people of the lowest income levels you (higher income folks) are already paying for a majority or even their full premiums of Obamacare in the form of subsidies and your high premiums.

    --pete--
     
  20. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But the taxes imposed on the wealthy do not represent the whole picture on how subsidies are paid for.........that was my only point.
     
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  21. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you pay taxes, you're stuck with the bill, fella....

    There is no "choice" when you, or somebody in your family, are heading to the hospital in an ambulance from an accident.

    You express here precisely the misconception that makes the Individual Mandate necessary. You are not buying "treatment". You're buying "Insurance". Which means you are part of a risk-pool in which we all share the cost. The choice you have is now. If you are younger and require less doctor visits, less medication... etc...So you go to the marketplace and you pay a much lower premium than I do. But that doesn't mean you're less of a risk. If you take antibiotics, and rarely go to the doctor, you are at a much higher risk at developing a cancer that will go undetected for a long time than I am, for example. Because I go to the Doctor for a checkup twice a year. Books don't measure your PSA or perform a neurological exam. So you are risking your life, which is your own business, but are also risking my tax dollars, which is my business.

    The core of the problem is you. You're in the group that is driving everybody else's cost up. I hope you educate yourself a bit more on this because, right now, you are part of the problem. Keep learning, and become part of the solution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  22. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    I could easily debunk all of your arguments, but I'm smart enough to know my time would be wasted on a socialist mindset.

    I am actually the solution and not the core problem as you claim above. If everyone did as I do to take personal responsibility for the majority of all their healthcare their medical expenses over a 20 year period would likely be just a few thousand dollars and they could easily pay it from their savings. With this responsibility comes living a safe & healthy lifestyle so that your risks of getting sick or injured are minimal.

    I met a 92 yo woman a few weeks ago who is very active and still works every day. I asked her what the secret is to such a long life. She told me she stays away from the doctors. :)

    All I want is freedom for all. If you want a plan that enables you to see a doc twice a year, that should be your option, but please pay your own way don't ask me to pay for it.

    Bottom line, we need various levels of healthcare plans & insurance, from very low cost insurance to the highest quality healthcare, but we DO NOT NEED a universal system that covers everyone the same because that translates to loss of freedom and a doomed to failure socialist system.

    --pete--
     
  23. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That kind of thinking has caused the US to pay a higher % of GDP for inferior healthcare outcomes compared to many other countries with national systems. If your view, that we are all individuals who should seek to serve our own self-interests, prevails we are doomed to fail as a nation.

    The U.S. spends more on healthcare than any other country — but not with better health outcomes

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-healthcare-comparison-20170715-htmlstory.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  24. petef56

    petef56 Well-Known Member

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    That's the socialist mindset that so many have been duped into believing.

    The truth...
    THE ROOT CAUSE OF A BROKEN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.. OUTRAGEOUS FEES !!!

    * Box of tissues.... $8

    * Tylenol.. $15 per pill, $345 for average patient stay.

    * Doctor spends 6 minutes with patient, orders & reviews tests... $600

    * Non-sterile pair gloves.. $53, $5,141 for average patient stay.

    * Elderly person bumps head CATSCAN required by law... $4,800

    * Child requires emergency room service to apply butterfly bandage... $2,500

    * Routine hernia operation.... $27,000

    * A few days in ICU for difficulty breathing... $474,000


    And these bills get paid without revolt by the American people.
    The people get what they deserve. Enslavement by the healthcare system

    The question the American people should be asking is;
    How and who allowed these fees to get so outrageously out of control?

    --pete--
     
  25. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's a odd thing that you choose to blame the victims of these fees rather than the for profit hospitals who charge them. A single payer universal system produces better results for less money. That is an empirical fact based on multiple examples around the world.
     
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