African Americans are very racist?

You have

you failed to respond.

Lose teh debate -shout racist.

If youw ant a rematch where you actually answer the issue then be my guest but for now you are just the sterotype socialist who shouts racist when they lose.

 

What's the issue you two are in dispute over exactly?

 

Well it isn;t really a dispute. I maintain that in the USA black people are twelve times as likely to kill a white person as a white person is a black person. He won;t dispute any part of it just shouts that I don;t know what i am talking about and that I am racist. He can;t actually counter my argument. he claim he doesn;t want to waste his time refuting them but seems quite happy to waste his time with endless ad hominems

 

Statistically, you mean?

I see.

 

Yes, Statistically. He claims to have an advanced degree in economics so , if that is true, he must be able to understand statistics.

I have another argument that goes like this

1) High testosterone is a significant factor in violent behavior

2) Black people, especially black people in the new World, have very high levels *statisically speaking) of testosterone when compared to the average

Therefore

3) It is not surprising that Black people , especially black people in the new World,also have (statistically speaking) very high levels of violent crime

 

good quote

I like apatheist. I am one of those too. I'm more of a classic liberal than a libertarian.

 

Ok but by factor you're implying causal link. Can you give evidence to that claim?

Evidence?

Well no it would mean SOME black people, if you can substantiate your claim. And that quantity of the SOME would further be determined by such stats which I await from you.

 

Yeah I find I am increasingly a classical liberal more than a libertarian. Actually I might change my signature soon

 

Light reading from Psychology today
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200907/sex-violence-and-hormones

Heavier papers You will need to download the whole paper

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16483890
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2029601

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10604704

Jamaica has higher levels than even US blacks

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/11/black-athletes-and-testosterone.html

That's why I used 'statitiscally'' speaking it implies higher levels for black people as a whole

The stats I have used were the ones that Dujak linked to above but the FBI's stats are the basis

 

My problem is with assertions such as this: "Evidence that human behavior is partly governed by hormones is mainly restricted to correlations, which are not the same as causes. At least one experiment found that large doses of testosterone increased aggression but only for a small proportion of men."

None of these references are conclusive. I agree with them that hormones play a part, but to what extent is highly debated.

Didnt know this. Very interesting.

The problem though is that whilst some black men may have higher levels of testosterone, you need to show they are the same one's that are criminals. The other problem with your hypothesis is that whilst there is a correlation, there does not appear a distinct connection. Jamaica doesnt have exceptionally bad crimes rates, though this hypothesis suggests they should. What is more, your evidence leads to another question. As a set of contentions it reads like this:

1. Testosterone causes aggression.
2. Aggression causes crime
3. Black men have higher levels of testosterone
4. Given 1, 2 and 3 are true, black men account for higher levels of crime

My question is, can you give evidence that 2 is generally correct?

 

not conclusive..no

Jamaica has horrendous crime levels. It has a murder rate of about 9X the US murder rate (per capita) I don;t know where you get the idea that it doesn't. members of the jamaican diaspora also show incredibly high levels of violent crime.

1. Testosterone causes aggression.
2. Aggression causes crime
3. Black men have higher levels of testosterone
4. Given 1, 2 and 3 are true, black men account for higher levels of crime
[/QUOTE]


Not quite

1) testosterone is a cause of violent crime I doubt whether it has much influence over fraud. There is a demonstrated correlation between testosterone and violence

have a look at :

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/49/2/174.full.pdf

 

What I meant was, Jamaica isnt particularly violent when compared to the most violent states/crime filled in such a way that indicates it is a black orientated problem, I mean the international homicide rate has Jamaica is 5, not first. There are a number of weird things about Jamaica that could contribute, such as the fact they have a near genocidal culture around gay people and other minorities, which is not well known. And there are a number of other factors such as the fact Jamaica is incredibly poor etc? Could you show some evidence for the diaspora?

Interesting study. Still seems like a number of variables could at play that cannot be quite ruled out and that he findings are not themselves overwhelmingly convincing. That study does give much more merit to your argument though.

I can honestly say I dont know why that guy called you a racist.

 

you have no clue what you're talking about

 

So what's your beef with his contention? It seems, whilst not conclusive, fairly interesting and insightful.

 

5th is pretty damned violent as a world homicide rate and since it is not the ONLY factor it is clearly quite significant. the poverty issue is a bit of a cop out - the worst countries, with the exception of Ivory coast and Zambia are ALL central American countries in the top 10. in terms of wealth Jamaica is almost exactly in the middle of the worlds countries. It has the same income as Thailand but 8X the murder rate.

It is not definite by any means but as a theory it seems to stand up to the limited info we have

Tha jamaican disapora. There are no specific stats but the diaspora is notably in the UK and Canada. In Both countries persons of jamaican oprigin are massively over represented in sport -especially Athletics and in violent crime.

I do. he is utterly typical of a leftist mentaility that cannot conceive that it can be possbly correct that black people are more agressive than the average and not being able to effectively rebut the argument he launches into an ad hominem attack. this is normal behavior for them. This is where the term "politically correct"comes in. My information may be scientifically correct but it is not "Politically Correct" which is what is important to people like that. Essentially I am guilty of heresy in his eyes for daring to speak about things contrary to the received wisdom of the left.

Frankly the truth is far more usefull. It provides a proper reason. I have ADD it explains why my typing is really really sloppy amongst other things. Whilst I was growing up teachers etc said I was just lazy, had attitude issues etc. When I found out I was ADD it was liberating. It meant I had something to deal with. it wasn't my fault and it could be addressed.

WIth this it explains the issue better. We can understand that high testosterone can be a big issue so we can test for it -espcially amongst black children as we check for sickle cell aneamia. That means would could use testerone blockers or perhaps redirect it and make sure high testosterone youths have more sports at school to suck up the excess energy and aggression and have a different operating discipline sytem that recognises the issues. The army needs people like that.

To the leftist this is just unacceptable. For them everything must fit into a binary of oppressor and oppressed. if black people have issues it MUST be because of white racism. no other diagnosis will do.

 

Blacks in America think that Whites owe them something. This has been shown by calls for reparations, by Black leaders. Actually, it is Blacks who owe a great debt of gratitude to Whites, and for quite some time now.

 

Wrong on both counts.

 

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Can;t you do any better than that?

You sound like Dujak above. Have no actualy argument and actually behave like you are the arbiter who can decide who is wrong and who is right,

Proectectionis has made two assertions. The first is quite clearly absolutely correct. Blacks (as a group, there are always dissenters) certainly do opine that whites owe them. I can't se how you can make a case otherwise. The second assertion is a matter of opinion. As it happens I don;t share it but its not 'wrong'. Value judgements have no right or wrong answer.

 

It's 6th and its not the only factor. See below

Its actually 6th and the poverty is still a factor. But what about cultural tendencies I pointed out that precipitate killing considered by other people to be homocide? There is also the fact that there is no clear inclination for nations populated with black men to be the only countries with crime let alone the highest ranking.

It's interesting but I would not say it sways me.

But could that be due to a history of persecution and poverty which is also well known?

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a 'left' thing (aside from the pc stuff). Especially since left and right don't really apply to anything these days - although Americans tend to hold on to these terms in denial of this fact for some reason. I think the bizarre PC thought you describe is very accurate but not just a left wing thing. I've seen similar tendencies amongst what you would describe as 'right wing' folks. You are correct in saying he is completely wrong though

I completely agree with you. I wouldn't quite agree with your theory but I wouldn't mind setting up a sports program like you described to see the effects.

You mean some leftists, whatever they are.

You'll find that's with a lot of people and it isn't bound to the point on the political spectrum that they sit on.

I agree that this is a very pc train of thought found in many people. I just think its not so clear cut, especially since there are indeed racists out there and on this forum

 

Well that's my point - it doesn't really stick out, the idea that black people are particularly prone to violence.

Sure but they had a different isolationist culture.

Cultural tendencies as to how to react.

No it isnt. americans were persecuted so they started a revolution. makes complete sense.

Are you saying all the violent crime is rape or mostly rape? The statistic I cited was homicide - can occur in the process of many things.

I agree but at the end of the day they attempt to achieve the same end - censorship.

I struggle to discern what a leftist is.

Really? Can you show evidence for that claim? They sound the same to me just reworded.

Who exactly?

Have they ever done that?

I agree, but you seem to think it ok to treat people as part of one of two ends of the political spectrum - equally useless and misleading in my opinion

 

You have to be joking. How is teh massive murder rate amongst black people NOT indicative of a people prone to violence

So you are saying that the incredibly high amounts of vioent crime that people of jamaican background commit is because they are poor and feel thyat 30 years ago they were badly treated?

perhaps you could explain this

Are we reffering to the US war of independence?

No. Homicide is very rare in the UK but black people are massively over represented in it as they are in all violent crime.

yes I would agree

really? It is someone who primarily sees the world in the basis of an oppressed vs oppressor binary -wther by class, race , sex etc

What would evidence consists of? You seem to demand a very high level of evidence from em whilst expecting me to just accept your assertions as given

You want me to name them al;l??

Absolutely. They claim that black people cannot be racist .

What do you mean 'treat people'? I have no control over their lives. Outside the internet I have no contact with either group.

 

i don't think racist nut cases are interesting at all

 

You must have one hell of a boring life if you constantly come back to have your ass handed to you in a sling by a 'racist nutcase'you find uninteresting