An AH scenario, Japanese avoid WWII

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by Aleksander Ulyanov, Mar 15, 2022.

  1. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    They still invade China but leave Britain and the USA alone. (They get oil from Palawan Island or the Spratlys or somewhere)

    What happens?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2022
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  2. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    Around the end of 1973 my cousin was transitioning to weird. I overheard him presenting the conspiracy theory that the US bribed Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor, promising to use only defensive measures against them while we beat the Germans.
     
  3. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    The US entry into World War II is delayed, for who knows how long. The US wouldn't be likely to enter unless there was some incident that caused it.
     
  4. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    The US was going to enter the war eventually because that POS fdr wanted it to be.
     
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Right but the American public opposed it, until Pearl Harbor. So absent a Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't have entered unless there was some incident or some threat that drew us in.
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most likely, the US ramps up aid to UK/Russia to levels that Germany cannot afford to tolerate, Germany starts torpedoing US ships, and one declares war on the other anyway. Pretty much how we got into WW1.

    I got one too though- what if Japan invaded Russia instead of attacking Pearl Harbor? The successful defense of Moscow is largely attributed to elite Siberian forces from the east moving west to defend Moscow late in 41, the same time Pearl Harbor was attacked. If Russia had needed to defend in the east and the west, Moscow very well could have fallen and drastically changed the outcome of the war.

    I've always thought it was a bit odd that there was virtually no cooperation between Japan and Germany. Seemed like more of a non-aggression pact than an actual 'alliance.' If they had cooperated strategically, I don't think we would've won. 'Hand of God' maybe....
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  7. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    While you leave unexplained your referring to FDR as a P.O.S., if you are crediting him with knowing the importance of the U.S.' s entering this war, then at least you can't call him a dumb P.O.S.
     
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  8. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So Japan defeats Russia and Stalin is publicly hanged. Putin would be speaking Chinese now, or never have been born. Interesting idea.
     
  9. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Which at least makes one wonder...
     
  10. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    Are you unfamiliar with his track record?
     
  11. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not so much wondering as it is knowing... TPTB were getting us into WW2 one way or another.

    Pearl Harbor: U.S. Knowledge of the Attack · Narratives of World War II in the Pacific · Bell Library Exhibits (tamucc.edu)

    And while I don't excuse it, the world is better off today than it would have been had the US stayed out of WW2.

    Now WW1 on the other hand is a different matter entirely. It very well could have been 'the war to end all wars' if we hadn't got involved, and unlike WW2, we really had no business in it at all. The Lusitania (and such) was every bit as much the baited trap to trick Americans into supporting a war as Pearl Harbor was, and for far less benevolent reasons. And there likely would have been no Nazi Germany, a very different Russia and no WW2 had the US stayed out of WW1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
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  12. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Our entering the war against Germany was, in fact, not accomplished through the Pearl Harbor attack, alone. That only led to our declaring war on Japan. It was Hitler's incredible stupidity, to declare war on the U.S., which brought us to the European theater.

    You are already stipulating here, a different situation, than suggested in the OP, which hypothesizes Germany leaving alone, both the U.S. and the UK. I agree that this proposition is a little bit problematic, because Britain would still be at war with Germany, regardless of whether Germany did nothing more than defend itself, against British attacks. But this would, clearly, have made it much less likely, that we would enter the fight against Germany, in nearly as big a way as we did, not in an even bigger way, regarding aid, as you propose.

    Regardless, if the Nazis had been able to focus primarily on Russia, having a possible invasion ONLY by Great Britain, to worry about, in the West (and had perhaps slowed their expansion into Africa), it would have been irrelevant how much support we provided Russia: they would have been overrun by the Germans. Even as actual history was, a case can be made that Hitler's insistence on diverting resources from supplying his advancing army, in order to carry trainloads of Russians to concentration camps, is what deprived the Germans of victory.

    This all is a stark lesson in the intrinsic flaw in any system, ruled by the whims of any single man. Japan still had a huge amount of land to conquer, in even just the Far East, much less Indo- China. Any sensible approach would have entailed securing all that land, before antagonizing the sleeping lion, America. How much relative benefit was there, in that bonehead move? It was an act of extreme hubris, by an Emperor with unrealistic expectations-- as was Hitler's declaring war on the U.S., as was his invading Russia at all, before Germany had nailed down his Western flank. His generals, even tried to tell him this; but a Dictator need not follow common sense. That is exactly what we see playing out, today, in Ukraine. And yet their are those foolish enough, nevertheless, to long for our own, authoritarian leader to-- no doubt, as with the German powerhouse-- eventually lead us to ruin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OP doesn't even mention Germany. Only Japan. Are we talking about the same thing?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  14. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Right. Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. What are you disagreeing with? With no Pearl Harbor, it's unlikely we would have entered the war.
     
  15. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes: he was instrumental in getting the U.S. through the Great Depression in as good a shape as we were, at the other side; he also recognized the NAZI threat, much sooner than most of his countrymen, and was crucial in the directing of our successful efforts, in the Second World War. I assume, you are referring to something else. Therefore, your asking of this question-- rather than just going ahead with laying out your case-- seems nothing, but stalling.
     
  16. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not disagreeing; just because I reply to you, you cannot make the assumption that I am opposing anything you'd said. I was merely adding this important detail.
     
  17. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Are you confused about what you posted? This is what I replied to:
    Is that quote about Japan, or about Germany?
     
  18. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    His hapless spaghetti throwing extended the Great Depression by at least 7 years.
     
  19. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    He actively and eagerly ignored the dire threat of the Soviet Union. One evil doesn't clarify another.
     
  20. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    He was 0% military strategist. The US military won that war despite the stupid, arrogant SOB in the White House.
     
  21. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  22. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  23. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  24. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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  25. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Our plan to supply the allies, was his, I believe. It certainly would not have become a reality, without his pushing it. You clearly are not knowledgeable about FDR's role.

    Nor to you provide any substantiation for your calling him a P.O.S.

    The Soviet Union, in the 1930's, and early 40's, did not require any U.S. attention. Expecting FDR to know the distant future, is not reasonable and, by that standard, just about EVERY U.S.-- and world-- leader, could be called a P.O.S.

    It doesn't seem like you've thought this through: wouldn't your assumption, about world leaders, generally, confer upon yourself, the title of "less than a P.O.S.?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022

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