I'm not really an "animal rights" enthusiast, nor am I a vegetarian. But I just can't stand to watch animals being slaughtered alive. I've witnessed this in both a meat slaughterhouse and as part of an Albanian Sufi religious procedure. Each time I just felt sickened and sorrowful for the struggling, suffering animal as it desperately fought for its life. I guess I'm both a hypocrite for eating meat and a wimp for not having the stomach for the suffering and death. I can't imagine what benefit slitting some animal's throat provides for supposedly compassionate, religious people. In fact, in my opinion, slaughtering animals to appease God doesn't speak well for religion's notion of God. To me it just communicates the survival of ancient barbarism into modern times. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
I never really understood sacrificing animals nor how it ever was supposed to appease God .. I don't know what those crazy ancients were thinking but to be perfectly honest, I reject the idea That God actually told people to do it. I do think man thought somehow that it appeased God (perhaps) and that they said that "God said" ... I am a Christian and understand the Human sacrifice but I think the old timers were screwy ... (forgive me God if I am wrong) But I do feel your pain. I eat Chicken and once saw chicken stuffed in the truck so packed until feathers were flying out of the sides of the truck and it made me sad, made me sick about the whole business of slaughter. But I eat chicken ... I will NEVER eat veal if you read about what they do to them .. ugh, it is terrible.. Remember a song called "man in the Box?" It was written based off of veal and how they keep the calf in a box their whole life so the meat is tender and they can't run and jump around, they live in a box till slaughtered... So I would be far to weak to kill an animal too and if I had to, I would be a vegetarian. lol
Sure. If we have to eat our sisters and brothers animals then we should take care that they have the right to live as long as possible in the best of all possible ways dependign on their own lifestyles and not on our lifestlye. We should kill them in the most respectul and most human way we are able to realize. Animals should not suffer more than necessary only because we need their energy for our lifes. As far as I know Jesus Christ became one time in his life very angry - in the temple. Was it really only because of money and business in the temple area ? - or forget they just simple to report what had happened with the money in the temple? Lots of animals were sacrificed there in this time and maybe for everyone - except Jesus - this was quite normal. Our relationship to animals became better meanwhile - nevertheless I would say we are all barbars far away from doing the best we could do. Today we are even more like a natural catastrophe for the survival of all life on planet earth - we could call us often ourselve more "gods shame" than "human beings". http://youtu.be/4HBLTj8ejBs
You are a Christian and don't understand why God had animal sacrifices? If you reject the fact that God told them to do it then might as well disbelieve everything else in the Bible.....you would only be fooling yourself by going to Church and believing in God. You are calling men of God that did as they were instructed screwy, then you are calling God screwy.....can a man be more righteous than God, a scripture asked. You should be in a position to explain those things. A scripture says, be ready to answer for the hope that lies within you. If you are just as ignorant as an unbeliever then it says that you are not studying the scriptures or you don't understand what you read. It's like a doctor that does not know how to treat a patient that is ill. No one in their right mind would go to such a doctor for medical advice. This is what is called hypocrisy. Sorry if I come across harsh but I am hoping to spur you and other Christians that are ignorant of the scriptures to spend more time studying that book (the Bible), and less time on other things is of far less importance.
I can't tell you much of why pagans sacrificed animals, but the reason why God demanded it is because 1), animals do not know what sin is.....they are sinless. 2), it represented or pointed to Jesus, who never committed sin and who would die for all people. It does not mean that those animals that they sacrificed actually paid for the peoples sins back then, but the lesion is that sin has a price ..sin has consequences, and the only way to make things right is that a sinless or the innocent is the only one that is qualified to by that price. When they see an innocent animal being slaughtered, they know that its because they are the one that have caused that animal to have to be sacrificed.
First off, thank you for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate it. Now, what I'm wondering - from the Jewish/Christian perspective, wasn't all the animal sacrifice somehow supposed to be a preliminary substitute for our own death since we are sinful in the eyes of God? I mean, wasn't it like God needs to see death as a payment for sin? I don't know - maybe I just don't get the deeper significance but that seems like God has Himself all wrapped up in His own rules and regulations and we and the animals are the ones that pay the price. Now Jesus is a different story, since he somehow also was like one of the animals - sacrificed for our sin. But He too seems to have to pay the price for an almost rigid, mechanical, "red tape" type of mind of God. I'm just saying the way it appears to me - not the way it is. Maybe we made all this stuff up because we feel alienated (?) - but alienated from what? The world - the universe - a real God? I dunno... The sacrificial religions seem so contrived and even heartless. If Christianity is true, it almost seems like the whole Good vs. Evil thing is more like theater than reality, complete with stage setting, good and evil characters, and us setting squarely in the middle. I guess in that case God is the director and the Good and the audience (and maybe even the evil too). BUT - when I studied the molecular machinery of the cell and the functionality of DNA and RNA and all that's required to realize protein synthesis and the bewilderingly complex biochemical processes that are "Life", I'm convinced that this wasn't the result of random mechanical processes. That is, unless the universe is an infinitely reconfigurable arrangement of energy, occurring over an infinite span of time (no beginning). Then every possible arrangement would eventually occur, including what we witness at present. So, I guess it's either that or God - or maybe somehow both. I talk and ramble too much!
I understand. It seems mankind has a shared ("pagan" and non-pagan) awareness that our limitations or moral failures make God angry at us and the only remedy is to offer to Him the death of the innocent. Forgive my lack of vision but this really seems to be a brutally barbaric view of both God and man, and especially the relationship between the two. This is just an observation - maybe an incorrect one. I have no desire to judge or condemn the religions that hold to this view. I'm no one to judge what others believe. And I am certainly not in a position to cast a negative light on any REAL God. I would just like to be able to wade through the religious swamp and reach reality's substantial shore without falling into some mythical quicksand that would suffocate any further ability to reach that shore. The sheer brutality of sacrifice, whether animal or human, seems to me to paint the picture of a god (small 'g') that was born out of the tribal minds of a very ancient shared barbarism. I emphasize the word "seems".
Sin is barbaric.....look around you.....the world is the way it is because of sin….war, crime, hatred against each other, corruption in government, the desire to rule over others, theft of other people’s property, verbal and physical and sexual abuse and so on…..our actions is what makes this world a horrible place to live......this was never God's plan for man. Human beings made the choice to sin (God gave man the choice to freely choose) and as a result we have the world we have today......they chose to listen to Satan, though the Bible says Adam was not fooled but his wife was. Adam know the truth but he willingly went along with his wife.....kind of like many men today in the U.S.....they let their wife lead them rather than be the head or leader they were made to be. But because God loves human beings so much and His intention for man will stand, He promised from the time of Adam that He would provide a Savior for man, so He instituted the animal sacrifices as a shadow or a reminder of His promise.
So the remedy for barbarism is barbarism? Do you ever find it a bit odd that God would put his new masterpieces of creation into the perfect garden with but one forbidding - then permit the arch-deceiver, evil incarnate, the ultimate sweet-talking con man/psycho-killer, into that very place for him (or it) to try to lure them to destruction? And not only would the curse be upon them them, but also the billions and billions of their progeny that would unconditionally be the inheritors of a natural bent away from God and towards sin, death, and destruction. It always bothered me to no end that sin is unconditional whereas salvation is conditional. We are unconditionally doomed to eternal destruction but, if we are chosen to hear the gospel and given the grace to believe what we hear, then and only then shall we escape that automatic death sentence. In fact, it's even a more heartless situation than this. That is an even more heartless aspect to the Biblical view of God and man. Better hope He has made you one of the very few "vessels of mercy" that are led upon the narrow way leading to eternal life and not one of the majority "vessels of wrath" that were fashioned to follow the wide path to destruction. Relative to that, animal sacrifice is just a minor cruelty.
You are a good example that a person can have a misunderstanding of God and what He is doing, when they take one scripture and run with it. God will have murcy on whomever He will, yes, that's true. But the thing is God has murcy on all people.....it is why the Father sent His Son. Notice Romans 11:32, the last part......it says all, not some. Romans 11:31-35 (BBE) 31 So in the same way these have gone against the orders of God, so that by the mercy given to you they may now get mercy. 32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all. 33 O how deep is the wealth of the wisdom and knowledge of God! no one is able to make discovery of his decisions, and his ways may not be searched out. 34 Who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord? or who has taken part in his purposes? 35 Or who has first given to him, and it will be given back to him again? You see it is not God's plan to call everyone to repentance during their liftime.....contrary to what most Christians are lead to believe(many of them, to their same don't study the Bible) The vast majority of humanity will be called much much later in the second resurrection. Notice in in verse 5 of Revelation 20 that says the rest of the dead did not live again untill the thousand years was finished. Notice also, that it says in verse 6 about thoes who will be in the first resurrection. You can't have a first resurrection without having at least one after the first. If Christians would only study the Bible for themselves they would not to spewing out the crap that they are telling unbelievers. Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. It is God that opens the mind of a person to believe and gives them the ability to repent. Without God's part in it, no one would repent.....it is God who grants repentance. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (ESV) 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Any Christian that tells you that it was their own will and goodness that caused them to repent, then they are blind to scripture.
Oh I understand the fundamental explanation between the temporary covering of sin and to foreshadow the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.. I just question it's very beginning from the ancient mind's perspective. Your personal judgment about my honest "OPINION" only gives me more compassion and understanding to the atheists that get rejected for their beliefs about the Bible and other religions. Job well done. Not to mention that I don't have the choice to just "disbelieve" in the rest of the Bible. This is completely incorrect. I just think that men attributed things in the old testament to God that appeased themselves. Our ancient Biblical men were also evil in many ways,heck, Paul was a total crud ball but that doesn't mean I think God is. I'm sorry but do you not find the business of killing chickens, stuffing them in trucks and cutting off their beaks so they don't kill each other just a little bit disgusting ? Do you not eat Chicken too ? Yes, I am a hypocrite in that respect but acknowledging that fact is the first step to recovery... Free range for life ... lol
The men of God were simply doing as God instructed them, whether they fully understood what it symbolized is not the question......God said to do it and that should be final. There was a man, whose name was Saul who thought he knew better than God, and because of that God rejected him and put David in his place. We all would do well to learn from that. I made a statement that was based on what you said not something that I think you might believe.....its your own words that has judged you. And you have any evidence that what they did was not instated by God other than your opinion? Paul was a man that God used to bring the gospel to the gentile.....you should be carful the label you use to describe people who were doing God's work. Remember what happened to Miriam, Moses sister when they were not respectful of Moses? So you call them evil but God calls them righteous....whom God has blessed no man has a right to judged them.....which I notice you are willing to dish out but take offense when your own words are used against you. But as long as you keep condemning it but still continue to do it you are condemning yourself. The one instructing should instruct himself as well.
I don't think I know better than God, I just question whether God actually wanted them to kill animals or they attributed that to God. My own words didn't tell me that I - "might as well disbelieve everything else in the Bible" and that "I would only be fooling myself by going to Church and believing in God." Bad advise NO, as a matter of fact I don't. I said Paul "was" a crud ball and that was when he was persecuting the Christians. I also used that as an example to fail your "screwy" theory, that I have to apply that term to God because I have applied it to a man. ...and what is this about - "take offense when your own words are used against you?" We will have to wait for that verdict when that happens. That is true... Even though Jesus makes it clear that God loves us more than the animals, I will have to part myself from what I think is a disgusting business as long as I think it is bad.. The conscience has a way of changing a person for the good.
You folks can't be disgusted by where our meat comes from as you're passing around the bucket 'o fried chicken. And who cracked open a jar of nuts here- once people start quoting the Bible you know Mr. Peanut is out of the bag. The majority of Jewish rites- because ultimately this is what we're talking about- is rooted in common sense. As such, you need a herd of cattle to be able to slaughter one to God or for that matter a decent living to buy a fine animal as sacrifice. This was meant to justify people becoming herdsmen, not warriors. Jesus was the sacrifice for His followers so no need to continue that rite for them. As far as animals-for-food, it's not until the cost of meat triples or more that the animals can expect to get a decent life. What they have now is a type of hell and at the very least, the animals we eat don't know what murder is.
Biblical based theologies are very confusing. The scriptures are supposedly "spiritually discerned" rather than intellectual understood. Perhaps. I'm pretty sure one could build a case for just about anything from them - and people do just that. I wonder how anyone ever knows that they aren't believing a Bible-based distortion of what was intended. How does one ever know that the original intentions didn't stem from the fantasies of the ancients? Regardless of all that, I still hate to see animals suffer and die - regardless of the reason. I know that's just my little brain quirk, but still. And I really can't imagine that any being as magnificent as one that could create a universe or multiverse from nothing would utilize such a horrible tool unless life really is of little consequence. To me, it is of consequence in spite of the fact that I am killing kazillions of life-forms without even knowing it every hour of every day of my existence. How shall we divide which life matters from what doesn't? Beats me - but I know that these higher creatures with brains do struggle against the knife and flee the pain just as surely as you or I.
Anyone that questions the accuracy of the scriptures is questioning God, whether they believe they are or not. The people that quested Moses and his authority didn't think they were questing God either. The scripture says the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.....you can deceive yourself and not know it, because you are trusting in your own understanding or reassigning. When you question one part of the Bible you are questioning the entire Bible.....you can even put doubt in a newly converted person's mind and cause them to stumble....you don't know who might be reading your words. Remember what Jesus said would happen to anyone that cause one of the little ones to stumble? Its best to keep your own doubts to yourself if you are weak in the faith, or better yet, ask God to give you more faith in His word. So you are trusting in your own opinion rather than go by faith that God is more than competent enough to move and inspire His word to be preserve and kept for us today to study? It is completely irrelevant......Paul never wrote any scripture in the Bible before he was converted.....so I don't see your point. In fact, none of the men of God wrote any scripture in the Bible before they were converted. I am just saying be careful.....a word to the wise is enough. If you are that weak, then I guess it would be best for you untill you grow a little more spiritually. Romans 14:2 (ASV) 2 One man hath faith to eat all things: but he that is weak eateth herbs. This is not to say that everyone that eats vegetable are weak spiritualy. I am not a lover of meat, but it's because I know that vegetable is a lot healthier to consume than meat. But I am talking about a person that might have a problem knowing that animals are being killed for food and it bothers them.....it does not bother me, as long as it its done quickly and the animal does not suffer. In the beginning, God did not intend for animals to be used for food, but after sin, God allowed it and told the Israelites what animals that can be eaten.
The Bible does not support the torture of animals. They were to be slaughtered, which means a quick death. Animals are not and were not intended to be a part of God’s plan for man, other than for man to learn how to govern or rule……sort of like a test run on future ruler ship that will be the real thing.
What you are sickened by is what God is sickened by. That sacrafising that sickens you is part of the sin of the Sodom,and Gomorrah humans doing the sacrificing thinking God liked it . Isaiah 1 10-11. KJV, Those humans had Satan as their master. Satan had his way with them. God saw what was going to happen, and sent angels to escort Lots family out before the city was demolished. Sodomy is not sex like humans think. verse 17 is god pleading with them to not oppress. Had Sodom,and Gomorrah repented the cities would not have had the end they had. Many are being oppressed. Zoosexuals, Pedo's, and whatever name you can think of. Oppressors will not judge themselves being meddlers in the lives of others trying to stir up trouble giving accusation.
Some of the KKK called lynching an animal sacrifice. Reason they did that is it was becomming of a good moral cristan.
I didn't say I didn't question God, I said I didn't know better than God. Perhaps this is why I question God in the first place. Point taken ... I am aware. I have made this same argument and agree that God can preserve his word ... I am too, inspired to question God and his word. So is this ... I never said Paul remained a crud ball. I do my best. That passage in Romans wasn't about cruelty to animals.. lol
You were questioning some of the things in the Bible that God whom have moved men to inspire it and put it together. I am Happy for you about that. Why? If you trust Him, then why question it? Doubt is a lack of faith and the way to get more faith is to ask God for it. I am sort of wondering then what was the reason for bring it up, since no one was born righteous, except Jesus and possible John, in the sense that he was the only man along with Jesus that was born with the Holy Spirit. That's good. I know it's not. The reason for using it is that there were some Christians who were weak spiritually, and would not eat meat because they believe it might have been offered to idols. A spiritually weak person in those days would have a problem with that, but a mature Christian would not.
Personally, I think it (mostly) comes down to why the animal is being killed. For food, for survival? This is the way of life. But for sport, pleasure, curiosity, religious beliefs, or any other reason, and I see it as a waste of life. From a religious perspective, isnt it then a waste of god's creation? It is certainly a waste of earth's creation when organisms perish yet nothing positive is gained from it.
22:37 Their meat will not reach Allah, nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety (and sincerity) from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good. in islam; the sacrificed animal is distributed evenly between: to the poor, the neighbours and your own house. you may give it all away, it's optional. we should also question the slaughtered animals' rights when we are eating a juicy filet mignon in a fancy restaurant.
Yes, that is correct. Yes, I do realize that doubt is a lack of faith BFSmith, unfortunately this is something that I have not perfected yet. ... What about your faith ? Tell me, can you do the things that the disciples did ? This frustrated Jesus that people couldn't do what he said they could do with even just a little faith. We are not supposed to worship the Holy Bible like it was God because it is not God. Yes, God inspired man and he inspires me as well.. I question God and he created me to question him and his book. I did give you an answer. It was because you said that if I call and ancient man in the Bible "screwy" that I am calling God "screwy." I was showing you why I disagreed with that logic. i.e Paul was a bad guy but God was never bad. How about king David ? Heck, king David was evil but God wasn't. Paul was only an example. So I can say these guys were bad or screwy doesn't mean I'm talking about God. ...and that has absolutely nothing to do with cruelty to animals in which is not a weakness but rather a compassion toward animals which is why there was no reason for you to bring that and spiritual weakness up to me.
I have no doubts about any parts of the Bible.....I believe all of it to be His word. This of course does not mean that I believe that I should live according to everything that is written in it. Some things are not applicable for Christians but it is God's word nevertheless. But Jesus never got frustrated....but yes, He rebuked the disciples because of their lack of faith. I have had miracles happen in my life because I believed and asked God for what I not only wanted but needed. I have even healed myself of pain from strain and injury that I suffered that I had for at least a year and a half. It’s simple, really, all I did was out my hand on the area that I wanted to be healed, and specifically say I want that part to be healed. It did not happen overnight, but I continued to target that part of my body that I wanted to get healed almost every day, and over a short time it gradually got better until I can't even remember if it was my right or my left arm that I had the pain. I did the same to other parts of my body I had similar problem and got the same result. The disciples were not converted when Jesus was teaching them, but He still wanted to let them know that faith is how things get done by God.....that faith is what makes all things possible. I was not talking about worshiping the Bible.....I am talking about trusting God that He is perfectly capable of preserving everything that He inspired....since He wants us to have a record of what took place He will make sure we have it. What Paul did he did before he was converted.....before God called him. And to call David evil is a long of a stretch.....one wrong act does not make a person evil. David was not going around and murdering men just to have their wires....God called David a man after His own heart. Would God called David a man after His own heart if he was evil? Truly, God does not see it the way you do and neither do I. No, but it does bother you that the meat that you consume are animals that most likely suffered. I have seen animals killed as a child growing up and it did not bother me a lot. I myself have slaughtered chickens but there was one thing that I refused to do, and was ring the neck of a chicken....I choose instead to chop the head off…..I don’t enjoy doing it. I knew a little kid many years ago when I back home, that got a little excited when he found out his father was getting ready to kill a goat…..I thought it was a little strange behavior to get excited about killing an animal.
