Anti-mask protests

See this, follks:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/anti-masker-coronavirus-florida-target-153558337.html

And don't shoot the messenger because it was reported by the HuffPo. I couldn't care less, who reported it. I bumped into it through an aggregator and there are video clips, it's not like it's not factual.

So, these covidiots talk about Bill Gates, 5G, the pedophiles... And they say that doctors asking them to wear masks are murderers.

Okaaaay....

I'm giving up. Throwing the towel. Our country has become way too stupid. We are living the movie Idiocracy.

You know what, my dear covidiots? Don't wear masks. Don't get the vaccine. Go out and be merry.

Me, I'll wear masks, and I'll get the vaccines for me and my family. You want to catch a dangerous, nasty virus? Be my guest.

You might want to sign a waiver saying that if you do catch it you don't want any health care, so that we, murderer doctors, don't get any close to you, right? We'll appreciate it because we're overwhelmed enough with the people who caught this for no fault of their own.

 

It’s called standing up for what you believe in. PA just had a federal judge rule that statewide mask orders are unconstitutional. They have been from the get-go, I guess it just took a federal judge to validate that fact. Terrible news for mask police.

Not wearing a mask does not guarantee you will get Covid, or give it to others. And if you do get it, 95% have made a full recovery, totaling at least four million out of 6 million cases in the US, so you’re unlikely to die anyway. If anyone needs to be throwing in the towel, it needs to be the people trying to control everyone else. We simply want to live our lives like we did during H1N1 which had many more cases than C19, and there weren’t Karens out trying to tell people what to do. And that was 61 million cases too. The jig of trying to make everyone comply with your unconstitutional, paranoid orders is up.

As a American, I’m glad these people took a stand against the hypochondriacs of this nation. It was creative, I’ll give them that.

 

One, it's not "YOUR" orders because if you followed my posting, I was NEVER for mandatory orders, but all for an educational campaign (which we haven't had either). But I find it's stupid to go to all the lengths these people are going to, in order to expose themselves and their loved ones.

Not wearing a mask does not guarantee you will get it or give it to others but greatly increases the risk, like I've shown with not one, not two, but 29 studies I've posted here.

95% make a full recovery? False. You have outdated information. I suggest that you brush up on the new and recent discoveries of sustained heart damage that is likely to lead to heart failure a few years down the road, for 20% of people who got the virus, including asymptomatic and mild cases, including young people, and including people with no pre-existing condition. This is a silent problem because for now these people are not having heart symptoms and the overwhelming majority don't even know that they got the problem, but a few years down the road it will become an issue, as the weakened heart fibers progressively start to sputter, a typical and predictable process that happens in all cases of severe cardiomyopathy. The more we learn about this virus, the more we realize how dangerous it is INCLUDING FOR SURVIVORS. In my posting history I've posted extensively about the newly found heart damage, including with a thread dedicated to it; look it up.

61 million cases of 2009 H1N1, you may not be aware of it, was a CDC ESTIMATE based on sampling testing. Guess what, the CDC also ESTIMATES that we are missing 9 out of 10 cases of Covid-19, so if you want to quote an ESTIMATE for the 2009 Swine Flu, then you need to compare apples to apples and also compare with an ESTIMATE for Covid-19 rather than comparing it to the oranges of confirmed cases. There weren't 61 million confirmed cases of H1N1 but rather a few hundred thousand, and then the CDC ESTIMATED that the untested total was about 61 million. So, taking their ESTIMATE for Covid-19 of ten more cases for each confirmed case, we're sitting right now at 65 million cases in America. Come again? And also remember that it's not over. You are looking at numbers from 2009 for a pandemic that is over, while the numbers for Covid-19 are still evolving.

You're comparing the H1N1 pandemic that had an infection-fatality ratio of 0.02% and no cardiac damage, to a VASTLY more dangerous virus. So, yeah, go right ahead and frolic around with no masks in the name of your freedoms... Then don't complain if you get to be one of the 1 in each 5 people who may have your life quality, productivity, and life expectancy curtailed by severe heart damage. Hint: heart fibers don't regenerate. Once damaged, that's it, short of a transplant. And that's only one organ. Damage has been found in brains, livers, and kidneys, in addition to the obvious one, pulmonary fibrosis.

You're very shaky in your definitions. A hypochondriac fears an IMAGINARY illness that doesn't exist. The heart damage from Covid-19 is far from being imaginary, as studies are now popping up everywhere confirming it with cardiac MRI, troponin blood tests, electronic microscopy in biopsies, and numerous autopsies even including in children. VERY real and VERY scary as the heart muscle fibers get chopped up to tiny bits by the virus. I even posted an electronic microscopic picture, here. The researcher who first found the damage said he couldn't sleep for several days after he saw it in his subject's electronic microscopy samples. And that's the virus you all want to mess with, comparing it with the much less lethal and much less damaging H1N1? Right...

Why do you think everywhere in the world you didn't see all the hazmat suits and all the cordoning out of entire cities and closed borders with the 2009 H1N1? Because medical scientists knew that although concerning and unfortunate, it wasn't THAT dangerous with its infection-fatality rate of 0.02%. Why do you see all of this, now? Do you think it's because of some sort of desire to dictate behavior? No, it's because we know that this one is much more dangerous.

So, the vaccines are around the corner... a few more months... and in view of the new findings about long-term consequences of catching Covid-19 including for young, asymptomatic, and healthy people, you still think that you should just go around maskless, as a symbol of your freedoms? Me, I call it boneheaded.

You do have a right to curtail your lifespan and life quality, but hey, I'd advise you not to, including because help is around the corner with vaccines.

But like I said, by now I've seen so much idiocy that I am about to stop trying to clarify things for people and about to stop trying to dispel misinformation and diffuse the real picture of this virus (hint: it's not just about the death rate). Like I said, as a free American that you are, be my guest, go just ahead and jeopardize your health and the health of your loved ones if that's what rocks your boat. Call me hypochondriac. Accuse me of being for mandatory orders I've never supported. Assume stuff about me.

But if you get sick and you develop heart failure late in life, don't complain because it was your choice.

 

What I bolded.

Congratulations, you have discovered what any number of people have been saying. You (generic) do not have the right to make choices for other people. They don't have the right to make choices for you either.

If their choice allows them to get sick, so be it. If your choice allows you to get sick, so be it.

I have not been able to find any data on the statistics on how many people who got sick did or did not wear a mask. Perhaps you know where to find it?

 

Like I said, I've NEVER been for mandatory mask use but rather for an educational campaign. I've done my best to educate people, but my efforts have been consistently ridiculed. Oh well.

Of course I know where to find it. I've posted 29 articles here showing "mask" and "no mask" and the number of "events" in each group; by events, it's meant the number of people who got the virus. All these studies were done with coronaviruses: the current SARS-CoV-2, the first SARS, and MERS; both in healthcare settings and in the community; both with N95 respirators and with simple surgical facemasks.

It's in my posting history MULTIPLE times. I saved the link to a meta-analysis containing all 29 studies, in a Word document that I have in my computer at home. I don't have it on me right now, but if you don't want to waste time searching my posting history, I can send the link to you once I get home later today - although it will be a lot later because right after work I have to attend a Grand Rounds presentation through WebEx.

 

Sincere question - if we had an outbreak of small pox (just chose a highly contagious disease for the hypothetical) do you think the government has the right to make choices for the public? Control behaviors? Is there any situation in which you would condone governmental intervention for the greater good?

 

Likely not, since I have already been subjected to a highly contagious virus, while not normally fatal in and of it's self, it is the base plate for a variety of cancers and various autoimmune conditions that will just have a rousing old time with your health.

It's likely you actually carry the same virus, but yours has remained latent. Somewhat similar to COVID in that respect, you can have it, you can spread it, and not even know you did.

I don't believe the government should be able to 'intervene' in such a manner. The phrase 'for the greater good' is a concern for anyone who understands that the government can, does and will abuse any and all powers that they have taken from the people.

 

[QUOTE="Collateral Damage, post: 1072054989, member: 60845"
I have not been able to find any data on the statistics on how many people who got sick did or did not wear a mask. Perhaps you know where to find it?[/QUOTE]

OK, as promised, here is the link:

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(20)31142-9

Consult figure #4 on page 1981; look at the 5th and 6th columns counting from the left.

You have the totals, too.
Without masks, 546 out of 6484 = 8.4%
With masks, 163 out of 3686 = 4.4%

More impressive than the raw numbers is the adjusted odds ratio, because it takes into account other factors (you'll see that this article addresses other epidemiological controls as well, such as social distancing and eye protection).

Guess what? The overall adjusted odds ratio favoring masks is 0.15!!!

So, the bottom line is, with masks, you have only 15% odds of catching the virus, if exposed to the same situation that lead someone else to catch it without the mask (for that person, then, 100%, or odds of 1.0, so if for you it's 0.15, it's only 15% of that person's risk). So the "no masks" here is equivalent to a placebo group, and the "masks" here is equivalent to an active intervention, that is, by adding the mask, you lower the risk from 1.0 for the placebo to 0.15 for the intervention. Sign me up!

So, my question is, if you can use a HARMLESS and CHEAP device to get you only 15% of the odds of contracting the virus as opposed to not using it, why in the hell wouldn't you??? Are you suicidal or something?? Because it is actually a no-brainer...

Now, I'll tell you what, these studies were done in real life,as people went about their businesses, not in controlled labs, not in ideal conditions of fit/seal. Because other studies show that WITH these ideal conditions, these masks can filter out 98% to 99% of viruses the size of the SARS-CoV-2.

I guarantee that my odds with the masks are even more favorable than this, because I wear high quality masks, professionally fit, and even when I'm not in my hospital wearing the professionally fit ones, I still know how to enhance the seal of a non-respirator but still high grade surgical mask such as the ASTM level 3 masks that I wear with a neoprene rubber brace that I made myself, when I'm out in the community (these seal-enhancing braces were not included in these studies, given that they are more recently proposed devices). AND I also wear goggles, and not just any goggles you find on Amazon (which will still help to some degree) but actually also medical grade ones, with a seal around the eyes.

I mean, I work daily with Covid-19 patients and have done it for several months, now.

What do you think would be the odds for me of catching the virus, if I simply didn't wear any PPE whatsoever? Given the repeated exposure over the months, I'd think, pretty close to 100%. Guess what? I haven't caught it, or at least not yet (knock on wood). Why? Because I'm very careful in wearing (properly) high quality masks, both in my job and in the community.

If all the participants in these 29 studies, 10,170 people, wore their masks as proficiently as I wear mine, I guarantee that the adjusted odds ratio would be even more impressive.

 

You are probably talking about the Epstein-Barr virus, right? It's a great analogy for all the covidiots who think that catching the SARS-CoV-2 is not a big deal, and one that I've made elsewhere, as recently as a few minutes ago in another thread.

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So I guess, with your opinion, you find that a government doesn't have the right, for example, to prevent a person with salmonella from working in a food-processing plant, right? What's the big deal, the person will just kill a few thousand people... we wouldn't DARE curtailing that ONE person's FREEDOMS of working there, just to prevent a few thousand deaths of innocent and unsuspecting consumers who would be eating the food contaminated by that person, right?

I don't think you understand what Public Health is, and what are the duties of public health officials, to protect the health of the citizens of this country.

There is a reason for mandatory tuberculosis screenings in certain settings (such as schools and hospitals) and for the mandatory reporting to the Health Department of a number of communicable diseases. Not having these controls in place is just plain irresponsible and utterly boneheaded, and unheard of in any civilized and advanced country.

Freedom is great, but your freedoms stop when they impinge upon the rights of other people, including, the right to be free of the pathogens you irresponsibly spread to them.

There is no absolute freedom in society. If you want absolute freedom, go be a hermit in some remote, non-populated area and live off the grid. Because if you live in society, sure, you should enjoy freedoms, but other people have theirs, too, and yours can't cancel theirs.

This kind of argument of absolute freedoms is often the argument of libertarians. Hey, you libertarians love the right of property and you are against any interference with it, right? But hey, if you are for absolute freedoms, then I guess any trespasser would also have the right to break into your home and say "I'm a free person, I have the right to sleep here tonight, eat your food, and screw your wife." Well, that person's freedoms stop at your front door, right? Otherwise the person would be impinging upon YOUR freedoms. I guess you'd gladly shoot the bastard, if he tried to break in anyway to eat your food and screw your wife.

So why in the hell do you suppose that someone has the right to spread a disease and infect you with it??? If a contagious disease is a threat to public health, yes, it is the duty of government to put control measures in place.

This said, while I RECOGNIZE this duty and understand its ethics and its rationale, I'm personally against mandatory mask use. For one thing, because I think that much more efficient, would be a large and comprehensive educational campaign on the soundness of the idea of wearing a mask in the middle of a freaking pandemic of a dangerous illness (it is much more dangerous than you imagine). One catches more flies with sugar than with vinegar. So, I'm pragmatic, I'm thinking of what yields the best result, and in our rebellious culture, most likely an educational campaign - especially if bipartisan and with ALL our leaders regardless of party TRULY embracing it - would yield better results than any mandates.

 

Oops, when I quoted you, I deleted too much and my post didn't trigger a proper quote so you likely weren't notified, but look at post #8 above, it's the answer to your question, like I promised.

 

I think we all would have been better off letting people decide for themselves if they want to wear a mask, or not wear a mask. It's the optimal way to control risk because each individual is the best judge of his or her own risk profile.

When others mandate masks, we end up wearing them when we don't need them, or not wearing them when we do need them. This is because others don't know the environment in which we are in, only we do.

Given the chance, people will act in their own best interests.

 

It doesn't help when the White House undermines the effort...

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/usps-plan-5-face-masks-to-every-american-white-house-174340862.html

I'm sure people will just shoot the messenger because it's the HuffPo, but it seems like the story is factual.

 

Yes it is Epstein Barr. The far reaching effects of it can be devastating to people. Yet I haven't seen the hype on this, have you?

And I still believe that the government only has the powers that were granted to them, not the ones they have quietly assumed through the years. There is a basic need for government in any society, but when the government supersedes the will of the people, well, then we have a problem.

General health is not an enumerated power of the Federal Government. One would have to know it's State's Constitution to know what powers each State has reserved to it's self, and I can't claim knowledge of those. I find this a quick link for reference: https://www.cliffsnotes.com/cliffsn...onstitution-are-health-and-property-mentioned

Education is the absolute best way for people to understand the impact of certain actions. However, those that 'scream' things in your face (literally or virtually) acting as moral superiors are not effective. Regardless of the subject matter, they only reaction people like will get from me, and many others, are internationally recognized hand signs. Not only do these purveyors reek of sanctimonious BS, they are entirely unaware of individual circumstances that may be valid. Not directed at you, you have been civil.

As to your 'I'll take what's yours' If someone were to demand what I have worked for for no other reason then want or greed, it will be defended. Intend harm to my family, friends, animals, children or old people, and I will defend. As to my spouse, they would likely make a game of hurting the person so I wouldn't have to. If someone were in need or something I have, then chances are I would share it. More than once my couch was a haven for those who needed it, my food available for those who were hungry. Demand it of me, and I'll not guarantee the answer.

As to people 'spreading a disease', it is MY responsibility to protect myself and mine, not other people's responsibility to protect me from it. Understand the difference?

 

Would we be having this discussion about what the government can do if this was an outbreak of Ebola? And do remember, that for 180,000 Americans, this virus has been every bit as deadly as Ebola.

And when people scream about masks being required, is it really any different than government regulations that prevent you from walking around in public without clothing?

 

I would certainly hope so.

Comparing state or local law on nudity or exposure to current mask mandates is not accurate. Care to take a stab at why?

 

Holy COW

8 young uns walking through a store and one was wearing a MAGA shirt

stop the presses!!!!!! We have far right extremists here who were not masked up

orange man is bad.

good grief

 

No, there isn't much hype about mononucleosis, the EB virus, and its late consequences, for a couple of reasons.

One, there is no immediate damage and human nature is such that remote dangers are not as considered. It's like if you say to an obese young man, "if you keep eating Big Macs everyday like this, you'll have a heart attack at ate 60 and will die 20 years earlier than you'd have otherwise died if you watched your diet." The answer is likely to be "who cares, I'm 20 now; I love Big Macs; I'll worry about it at a later point."

Two, there isn't much we can do because the EB virus is so ubiquitous. It's everywhere. Almost everybody has it. So what exactly could we do? We haven't been able to make a vaccine for it, and we haven't found any treatments effective against it, so it's a danger humankind just has to live with.

I quoted it not in terms on an analogy in terms of epidemiogical or clinical controls (there are none that are effective for the EB virus, unlike the SARS-CoV-2 virus) but more in terms of the people who say that the SARS-CoV-2 is no big deal because it only kills 1% of people, while we know that aggressive viruses like the EB and the SARS-CoV-2 have a knack for long-term consequences so the immediate death toll is not all.

I didn't necessarily mean the Feds. I meant Public Health in general. States have their Departments of Health and Human Services.

Agreed.

I try. Civility is a must. Generally I succeed in being civil. But I confess that I've been a bit frustrated and my civil tone has decreased a bit (I don't engage in personal attacks but sometimes my tone is harsher and may even be a bit contemptuous at times; I hereby apologize to all affected). It's frustrating when you try to share knowledge acquired in decades of professional experience and you try to share sound science from reputable peer-reviewed sources, and you get trolls and deniers and generally ignorant people mocking you and stating the most absurd notions as if they were factual, said deniers having absolutely no professional training in this area whatsoever but they act like they know everything. [Similarly, not directed at you, you have been civil, too]. I mean, over here, this is a hobby and a way to decompress from my busy and stressful professional life. Rest assured that if I'm giving professional advice to a patient I'm sweet and objective and present the facts in a polite and professional manner, try to ask questions, and try to gently coach the patient in terms of making the right decisions for him or herself. Well, as a matter of respect for Patient Autonomy, that's all I can do. Most patients listen and at least partially follow the advice. Others don't, and I don't antagonize them, but once they leave I reserve to myself the right to shake my head and think "what an imprudent and unreasonable person; exposing himself and his loved ones to unnecessary risk and not willing to listen to professional advice by someone who actually knows what he is saying."

As you should. I support your right to defend your property, your life, and your loved ones, even by drastic measures if need be - I'm a gun owner myself and wouldn't hesitate to defend my property and my wife. But I used the analogy not to say that you don't have the right to protect yourself, but just to say, freedoms are not absolute and they cease when they infringe upon someone else's.

I understand what YOU think is different, but I don't agree. Responsibility in society is mutual, that's pretty much what civilized society is; a sort of social contract to live together and be decent to each other. You have a responsibility to protect yourself, but others also have a responsibility not to spread pathogens if it can be reasonably avoided.

That's why I said you don't seem to understand Public Health and the duties of PH officers. Again, if you have TB or salmonellosis, you DON'T have a right to spread it to others and there *is* such a thing as mandatory quarantine for highly dangerous and infectious agents; do you suppose that we should allow someone with Ebola to walk around and infect hundreds (with this disease's HUGE infection-fatality-rate), or do you suppose that the person would have to be kept in quarantine, and forced to do so if the person didn't spontaneously comply? FYI, there's been cases of people who, in the name of personal freedoms, have tried to violate mandatory quarantine for highly infectious agents and have filed habeas corpus and whatnot, and the Courts have generally found against them, quoting the larger good of society. There's been people charged with felonies for willingly and knowingly infecting others with HIV. No, people do NOT have a right to infect someone with a potentially deadly pathogen, and sure, you have a duty to protect yourself but that protection is never 100%; even with the good advocacy I've been engaging in to teach people what kind of masks and what kind of enhancements they can adopt to be reasonably face, no mask, no goggle, no face shield eliminates 100% of the infection risk. Masks drop the adjusted odds ration of contracting the SARS-CoV-2 to 15% of the risk for a maskless person, but that's not zero %. So, sure, you have the duty to protect yourself, but if some irresponsible and selfish person approaches you with no protection whatsoever and emits a SARS-CoV-2 aerosol cloud in your direction, that's wrong, regardless of any idealistic notion you might have of absolute freedoms.

 

Did I say anything about Trump in this post you've just quoted? No, right? So what in the hell are you getting at, with Orange Man Bad???
I'm just frustrated at the idiocy, and with good reason.

 

As for me, I choose a full life, regardless of how long. I refuse to live it worrying about this virus, which I suspect will go away suddenly Nov. 4 anyhow.

 

Perhaps, before whining about being ridiculed, you ought to consider how you ridicule and disdain others. You called everyone at that protest a "covidiot" without regard to any individual's reasons or opinion on the subject.

 

Now, I did. Like I said, out of frustration and "throwing the towel." If you look at my posting history BEFORE this thread, you'll see that I tried my best to be objective, substantiated (with abundant citation of reputable scientific papers), and civil. That didn't stop people from ridiculing me, to the point that I had to put certain trolls on Ignore.

At one point, one tires of uphill battles, and frustration shows.

 

So, what will happen to this virus in the other 214 countries on Earth that do not have a presidential election on November 3rd??? Do you actually think that a pandemic is linked to our election? Do you have any idea what PAN stands for in the word pandemic?

 

I have already been doing all of that since the coronahoax began, and I still haven't managed to contract it.

Okay.

It is not dangerous nor nasty. It is acting like a mild flu virus acts.

Hospitals are not overwhelmed...