Are conspiracy theorists ever right?

Discussion in 'Viral/Biological' started by Scott, Apr 13, 2021.

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  1. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Is it okay to suspect that the official story of something is wrong or even a lie and have an alternative explanation? I think it's okay as long as they use the scientific method* when it's analyzed.

    Here's an example.

    I think that this analysis of whether depleted uranium is harmful is wrong and probably a deliberate lie. I'm going to copy and paste the whole thing in case the link goes dead.

    RAND REVIEW INDICATES NO EVIDENCE OF HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM
    https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/b04151999_bt170-99.htm
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

    The report, "A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses: Volume 7 Depleted Uranium," is the latest report commissioned by the office of the special assistant for Gulf War illnesses. The report responds to veterans' concerns that depleted uranium might be the cause of some of their illnesses.

    The report states that there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf. This is mainly because the body is very effective at eliminating ingested and inhaled uranium and because the low radioactivity of natural or depleted uranium means that the mass of uranium needed for significant internal exposure is virtually impossible to obtain. Large variations in exposure to radioactivity from natural uranium in the normal environment have not been associated with negative health effects.

    Exposure to uranium at high doses can cause kidney problems. However, no increase in kidney disease has been observed in relatively large occupational populations chronically exposed to natural uranium at concentrations above normal ambient levels.

    Researchers at the Baltimore VA Medical Center are following the group of Gulf War Veterans with the greatest exposure to depleted uranium, veterans with embedded fragments. Although these individuals have an array of health problems, many of which are related to their combat injuries, researchers say "To date no manifestations of kidney disease attributable to the chemical toxicity of depleted uranium have been found; neither do these individuals appear to have manifestations attributable to radiation effects."

    RAND is a nonprofit institution with a long history of independent research. RAND had experts review the literature, including Dr. Naomi Harley, an authority on radiation physics, Dr. Ernest Foulkes, a heavy metal toxicologist, and Dr. Lee Hilborne, a pathologist. Their review encompassed literature relating to both radiation and heavy metal toxicity risks published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, books, government publications and conference proceedings.

    This paper, as well as the RAND literature review on oil well fires and the Defense Department's environmental exposure report on depleted uranium are posted on the GulfLINK web site, at http//www.gulflink.osd.mil.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    There are scientists who say it's very harmful.

    Talk - Dr. Doug Rokke - Depleted Uranium (DU)
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium&&view=detail&mid=9970BF7603A6625981C69970BF7603A6625981C6&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium&FORM=HDRSC3


    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...-29&sk=&cvid=F5566D26274D4EF595FFB4EABE36845E

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium&FORM=HDRSC3


    These birth defects in Iraqi babies were allegedly caused by depleted uranium.
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=depleted uranium iraq birth defects&qs=BT&form=QBIR&sp=2&pq=depleted uranium iraq &sk=BT1&sc=3-22&cvid=CE37EFE9103D497EA29DDE8AECAE4748&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle


    It seems to be affecting veterans too.

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=depleted uranium american veterans birth defects&qs=n&form=QBIR&sp=-1&pq=depleted uranium american veterans birth defects&sc=0-48&cvid=0B9F9025DD4543F0A11BD36F9CAFB381&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle

    Beyond Treason (Depleted Uranium US-WMD Iraq War Veterans Dying 2005).divx.avi


    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=beyond+treason&FORM=HDRSC3


    The scientists at the Rand corporation are experts. Should we simply take their word for it because they're experts? I think they lied. What does everybody else think?


    *
    https://www.google.com/search?q=sci...0l4j46j0l4.5414j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  2. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Here are some articles about conspiracy theorists.

    Are You a Mind-Controlled CIA Stooge? — Paul Craig Roberts
    https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/08/31/are-you-a-mind-controlled-cia-stooge-paul-craig-roberts/

    A Radical Rethinking Of "Conspiracy Theories" Is Underway Globally!
    http://northerntruthseeker.blogspot.com/2012/03/radical-rethinking-of-conspiracy.html

    America the Illiterate
    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/america-the-illiterate/

    Weaponizing the Term “Conspiracy Theory”: Disinformation Agents and the CIA
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/weapo...ory-disinformation-agents-and-the-cia/5524552


    New Study: ‘Conspiracy Theorists’ Sane, Government Dupes Crazy
    https://www.soulask.com/new-study-conspiracy-theorists-sane-government-dupes-crazy/

    Laurie Manwell, Univ of Guelph; anti-conspiracy people are unable to think clearly due to their inability to process information that conflicts with pre-existing beliefs.
     
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  3. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    This lady is a scientist. At the 30:15 time mark she alleges that there is a lot of science fraud going on in the US.

    Global Nuclear Coverup an interview with Leuren Moret



    What she says and the lies told by the scientists at the RAND corporation make me wonder if we can trust peer-reviews.
     
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  4. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    "I think it's okay as long as they use the scientific method* when it's analyzed."

    Meh!! That discounts everything you have ever posted and everything you have ever read on any subject you post about.

    Says who? She believes in the HAARP crap - that is as low in credibility as you can get!

    Describe in detail her "scientific method"!

    The CIA did not coin the phrase conspiracy theorist and it was included in a pdf that made no attempt to use it in a derogatory fashion. Once again you repeat this lie, already pointed out to you. And the crank sites you use to add support to conspiracy theorists are a self supporting joke.
     
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  5. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    I doubt she really does. I think they got to her. They seem to have gotten to some other anti-establishment pundits.
    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...undits-who-support-the-official-story.514874/

    She has a daughter and maybe grandchildren. If I were in that position, I'd say anything to keep them safe.

    In the above video she seems to be a level-headed scientist. I saw the video in which she was talking about HAARP. She didn't seem relaxed like she does in the above video.


    Tell us what you think about the depleted uranium issue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  6. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    You really have no sense of reality do you. That is seriously pathetic. This woman is not a scientist, she is a clown. You know it now so you're only defence is to make up some ludicrous bullshit about being got at! Why don't you just remove her from your spam list, instead of making up crap?

    How come they haven't got to you then?

    Idiotic circular reasoning.

    Utter hogwash, she still is allowed to freely talk about anything and your ridiculous "logic" will go to any lengths to avoid the most obvious conclusion. You are way worse than the black knight!

    Again? Enough with your spam. I've had a long exchange with you already about this! Go find it.

    Describe in detail her "scientific method"!

    The CIA did not coin the phrase conspiracy theorist and it was included in a pdf that made no attempt to use it in a derogatory fashion. Once again you repeat this lie, already pointed out to you. And the crank sites you use to add support to conspiracy theorists are a self supporting joke.

    Withdraw your lie.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  7. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Translation:

    My job is to defend the official US version of things and this lie of theirs is simply too clear to obfuscate so I'd better sidestep the issue.
     
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  8. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    You are stumped clearly. The evasion from you always comes after a post you cannot answer. One if your witnesses is a clown and you know it. So instead of discarding her and conceding, you make up some bullshit about here being got at, whilst she happily continues spreading her hogwash on her website, with a little crowdfunding for the gullible like you.

    Sidestep which issue? How pathetic that you spam so much you can't even remember where you already did this!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  9. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    No response!

    No response!



    No response!

    No response!
     
  10. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    The depleted uranium issue. Tell us what you think of what the scientists at the RAND corporation said about depleted uranium.

    I don't recall discussing this with you. If you've already commented on this, could you link to it?
     
  11. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    I don't really know much about HAARP. I saw a video of hers in which she said some silly things that really sounded out of character for her. She said that HAARP had caused the earthquake in Japan if I remember correctly. She couldn't have actually believed that. That's why I think she was probably gotten to.

    Here's what she says about HAARP.
    http://www.leurenmoret.info/lifestyle/lmgnc-bookshelf/angels-dont-play-this-haarp.html


    A lot of anti-establishment pundits have been saying some strange things that they probably don't even believe themselves.
    http://politicalforum.com/index.php...undits-who-support-the-official-story.514874/

    The government probably has a standard procedure for getting these people under control.

    Here's an example.
    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=9211


    Remember what happened to Steve Kangas*.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-clinton’s-body-count.470715/#post-1066527073
    (excerpt)
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Steve Kangas
    His web site, Liberalism Resurgent, was meticulously researched and presented such a problem to the "real boss" of George Bush, Richard Scaife, that he hired a private detective to look into Kangas' past. Steve Kangas was found in a 39th-floor bathroom outside of Scaife's offices at One Oxford Centre, in Pittsburgh, an apparent suicide. Mr. Kangas, a very prolific writer, left no note. He had brought a fully-packed suitcase of clothes with him to Pittsburgh. He bought a burglar alarm shortly before he left for Pittsburgh. Why did he need a burglar alarm if he was going to commit suicide? An avowed advocate of gun control, he nevertheless bought a gun. What was he afraid of? Why did he go to Pittsburgh? After his death, his computer was sold for $150 and its hard drive wiped clean. Everything in his apartment was thrown away.
    -----------------------------------------------------

    https://www.google.es/search?q=Who+...&ved=0ahUKEwjhyN3Pkv3vAhXM4IUKHRcICmQQ4dUDCA0

    If you don't do what they say, something will probably happen to you.


    Here's another case.
    https://www.bing.com/search?q=micha...3D8F9221DA4CAF9B2743CDFE854687&FORM=QBLH&sp=1



    *
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/LiberalFAQ.htm
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
    http://www.rrojasdatabank.info/econom~1.htm
     
  12. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    You don't know much about anything.

    Chronic circular reasoning. She probably doesn't believe anything she posts, but is doing it to make money from people like you.

    I am not interested in your fumbling around on the internet.

    Chronic circular reasoning.

    Now you. You post on hundreds of message boards and blogs and youtube. You never make any attempt to debate, it's always incessant anti-American horseshit. For 20 years.

    You cannot answer this one can you!

    WHY HAVEN'T THEY "GOT TO YOU"?

    Why do you keep ignoring difficult posts?
     
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  13. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    You spam this BS so much you can't even remember any replies!

    [​IMG]

    You really have no clue about anything do you? Go to main forum, type in "depleted uranium". How ridiculously easy is that, yet you can't manage even that child proof task!
     
  14. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes. That is a huge "If" though and is often not the case in situations where people are called "conspiracy theorists".

    But is the actual report this link refers to saying what you claim it is saying? Does it state "DU isn't harmful" or does it state "We found no evidence of specific types of harm in specific individuals"? Is there evidence (not just claims) against the specific statements made in that report?

    YouTube videos and certainly random image searches are not evidence of anything though. You're already failing at your own "scientific method" condition here.

    No, you can assess their conclusions in the context of the evidence. Of course, that is difficult if we're not experts in the field so we have to rely on other experts to carry out that kind of assessment and review. That's why this kind of report is published, with all the technical details of their evidence and methods. If you wish to specifically challenge their conclusions though, you need to present your challenges in a similar form.

    Exactly who lied and about exactly what? Simply dismissing them out of hand because of who they are or you don't like what they say is no better than blindly taking their word would be. And again, that is a classic example of where people are dismissed as "conspiracy theorists".
     
  15. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    I would bet that they lied because of what the other side says. Look at the bottom of post #1.

    I did that this morning and the only thing that came up was this thread and this other one.
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...sist-iraq-nuked-by-us.334997/#post-1063388554

    Stop avoiding the issue and tell us what you think. The viewers are watching and judging.
     
  16. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This isn't about sides, it's just about scientific fact. You said as much yourself. You presented an article about a scientific report that will have reached a specific set of conclusions. You're free to question and challenge those conclusions but you didn't even try to do that (after all, you can't do that based on an article about the report).

    The second half of your post was a scatter-gun of videos and image searches. As I said, that isn't evidence of anything and fails at your own scientific method condition.
     
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  17. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    Nobody cares about your opinion. You choose woo no matter what.

    Your complete incompetence on such a trivial and easy matter is astonishing. I give you two words that find the thread and you fail to find the thread. It's on page 2 of 2.

    You absolutely irritating joke. Not only did I soundly trash your daft claims already, you "forget" that I have and play, yet again, this spam and vacate game!

    Meh, what viewers!?

    You've already been found wanting in every single laborious, spammed subject you fumble at. So, no you go find it yourself - it was only done 3 months ago - does your spam confuse you THAT much?

    We had this same "can't find it" bullshit with the bubble that you claimed I "blundered" on, when I answered it with the same info TEN YEARS AGO! We had the same issue on you claiming I didn't know how to speed videos up on youtube, when I showed you how to do it, that was only FOUR YEARS AGO! You are spamming this crap for about the fifth time on this forum and that is truly pathetic - now I suspect, rather than actually complete the ridiculously simple task of finding the thread I refer to, you will make some horseshit up about me evading your spam, or some idiotic "translation".

    1. PoliticalForum.com - Forum for US and Intl Politics
    2. Search - Depleted Uranium
    3. Page 2 of 20 - my avatar.
     
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  18. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    When I do it, only one page with ten entries comes up. Either link to it, or tell us your view on it.

    What do you think of these images?
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?...EA29DDE8AECAE4748&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle
    https://www.pinterest.com/evagutenberg/depleted-uranium+birth-defects/
     
  19. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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  20. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Tragic, horrific and highly emotive, which is the only reason you have to link random image searches (you are aware that the way search engines work mean we won't be seeing exactly the same set of results). They remain irrelevant to your own stated topic, which you claimed was about challenging "official narratives" using scientific method. I could find a whole bunch of pictures of healthy babies of Afghans or Gulf War veterans but that wouldn't be evidence of anything either.
     
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  21. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Don't you wonder a little bit when you see videos such as these?

    Depleted Uranium (D.U.) used by US forces blamed for birth defects and cancer in Iraq
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...pleted+uranium+iraq+birth+defects&FORM=HDRSC3
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium+iraq+birth+defects&FORM=HDRSC3
     
  22. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    I'm surprised you are even able to cut and paste - every time you get even basic requests to do something on the computer you fail miserably. The worst thing is that you then proceed to rant about other people avoiding you, when the issue is always your failure. Not only have you dumped this same BS previously on this forum you have pretty much avoided responses every time!

    Exactly what I thought before when you spammed this horseshit previously.

    But you said it was the classic act of a shill to avoid it! Needless to say you didn't say that here, you ran away to your basketball forum to talk "behind my back".

    I even told you how to do it, did you search in the conspiracy section? I gave you instruction to go to the main forum first! Oh, and I know "who" gave it to you because you go out of your way to tell people where you post. You leave small trails of BS wherever you post.

    Nothing in my responses played down anything, how can you fail to read this, is it a comprehension issue? Do I need to explain simple words for you?

    The rises in birth defects aren't necessarily down to depleted uranium at all, there are recorded elevated levels of lead and mercury, both very bad metals for new born infants. As I said, war is a shitty business. It isn't meant to be all cosy and warm and kill cleanly. There are clearly reported excessive uses of these weapons, but since when do you believe official reports!? All weapons create toxic environments with excessive use and we very regrettably bombed the crap out of this country.

    If you want to point out the obvious, carry on. But don't go making out that the scientists are lying because of your utterly clueless "detective" work. The weapons are safe in the levels of the element used, there is still no indication otherwise, just speculation. Of course there is risk in the volume the US used these weapons, but that does not invalidate the base assessments for their use.

    Besides, other things clearly show a more obvious influence:

    Birth Defects and the Toxic Legacy of War in Iraq - MERIP
    "Additionally, US bases in Iraq used burn pits to incinerate everything from computers to tires in large open-air pits that burned day and night for years. They released high levels of dioxin and innumerable other toxins that are known to cause health problems, from birth defects to neurological issues.

    [​IMG]
    A US Air Force equipment manager tosses used uniform items into a burn pit at Balad Air Base, Iraq, 2008. Department of Defense photo by Senior Airman Julianne Showalter/US Air Force

    Burn pits are also linked to US veteran illnesses and sit at the root of campaigns for veteran healthcare.[18] For Iraqis living near burn pits, serious consequences for their long-term and intergenerational health continue to emerge. For example, some Iraqi babies born near Tallil Air Base were found to have neurological problems, congenital heart disease, paralyzed or missing limbs and elevated thorium in their bodies. The closer to the base, the higher their levels.
    "

    Meh. Once again being assessed for credibility by somebody who demonstrates incompetence, bias and failure to use ANY methodology to verify any of their bullshit claims. You are the master of woo, you lost all credibility 20 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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  23. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  24. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wonder what? There are clearly incidents of birth defects and cancers people living in some areas where there was military conflict and DU is certainly one of the likely factors in that. The videos and news reports just give the narrative though. You said you wanted to discuss things on a scientific basis (which is a good thing) but that requires the technical details behind that narrative (regardless of whether they support it or not) and a level of ability to understand those details (a point where I expect we're both somewhat limited).

    It's also worth noting that the report you initially raised was about US veterans rather than Iraqi residents and while there is obviously crossover, they're two entirely different cohorts and so would need assessing separately. Ultimately nothing about outcomes seen in the Iraqi automatically contradict the apparent conclusions of that report (though, of course, we've still not looked at the actual report).
     
  25. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Banned

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    How about you reply to posts instead of confirming your incompetence on the internet!
     

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