Are the vaccinated 'hidden carriers' and therefore a greater danger to the unvaccinated?

And you carry millions of bacteria in your gut, but you don't care unless it makes you sick. As for viral loads, vaccinated people have a far greater rate of viral load decline / clearance than unvaccinated.

 

Formal studies of outcomes, I haven't seen them yet for Omicron. In my mailbox today I found a reference to 3 just published studies from the UK, released yesterday, but the article that presumably has links to them is behind a paywall I'm not subscribed to so I didn't check. I'm currently enjoying my Christmas break with my family so I'm not going to spend a couple of hours getting the real papers this source is talking about. So, yes, someone apparently did do some outcome studies, but I haven't had access to them. I did see a study with convalescent plasma from other variants failing to neutralize Omicron, and reports of thousands of people who had Covid-19 before, catching Omicron. So that's the evidence that I have had access to, that indicates that natural immunity to Omicron is kaput. However I predict that natural immunity from Omicron (once you get Omicron) to Omicron re-infection will likely hold, and given that Omicron is likely to get to a much larger chunk of the population, herd immunity might finally become viable, in case an Omicron infection does protect from a second Omicron infection (which, as a matter of fact, obviously remains to be seen).

The first idea of herd immunity back in 2020 was correctly put down. People keep thinking, the measures were just to flatten the curve. No, they weren't just for that, because at the time we did not have enough therapeutics and we didn't even know how to treat severe Covid in an ICU (e.g., early intubation and invasive ventilation, we learned since that it kills more people than it saves, instead of prone position and high flow oxygen; we weren't using dexamethasone and enoxaparin, etc. - I could give you many treatment details but I'd probably bore you). Let's just say, at the time, letting Covid-19 run rampant would have killed many more Americans. We didn't only flatten the curve; we saved a lot of vulnerable people who still today have managed to stay Covid free.

Now, the situation has changed. If we have a much more infectious but also milder, less lethal variant, then allowing it to run its course is much more palatable and maybe even wise, in face of not only milder disease but also better therapeutics. The one thing, I'd still want to gain some time until the antivirals are more diffused in the market.

Vax passes at this time make no sense. Omicron can easily get the vaccinated.

Look, vaccines do stimulate T and B cells. The reason you think they don't, is because the lay press never focused on this part. It's all antibodies, antibodies for them. But there are plenty of studies showing that cellular immunity is also obtained from these vaccines. Don't let lay journalist over-influence your thinking. One of the very reasons for milder disease in vaccinated people is cellular immunity. They fade in terms of humoral immunity with neutralizing antibodies, you catch Covid-19, initially with a high viral load, but then your cellular immunity kicks in, T cells get activated, B memory cells turn into plasma cells, a new batch of fresh antibodies are made, your viral load declines rapidly, and you recover in a few days. That's cellular immunity not only operating through cytotoxic T killer cells, but also B memory cells. Yes, the vaccines do get you to memorize these defenses, to a bigger or smaller degree depending on the kind of vaccine you took, the interval between doses, what medications you were taking at the time (even ibuprofen might blunt that response), and how well your immune system performs.

Antibodies can get produced again without a booster: if you catch the virus. But yes, a booster does bump up the antibodies titer, and if we're facing a very infectious wave that may come and go fast, this may be all that we need (and we'd be gaining time until the oral antivirals are more diffused). This is why it still makes sense to get three doses of an mRNA vaccine, which is one of the few ways to be somewhat protected (to a rather so-so and probably transient degree) against Omicron.

One thing: I was already rather against vaccine mandates (except for healthcare workers). Now with Omicron, mandates are becoming obsolete as well (before they even kicked in - the date was to be Januray 6th but they got blocked by courts) unless they'd also mandate boosters, and we'd be getting to a dangerous slippery slope.

I think the focus now should be on producing as many Paxlovid pills as we can. That's the real game changer.

 

Exactly, I just read the entire last post and not once did the question "What in FRACK are you talking about? " cease to be the main thing in my mind. The Library is still making us wear masks, just about nobody else. I really hope I don't need a bypass soon and meanwhile can only hope all the anti-vaxxers will die soon or maybe we can find a pill that will give people who don't have it the common sense of an ant and we can stop worrying about those who apparently are more concerned about the feelings of a tyrannical clown who will never know they even exist than whether they themselves will die from an agonizing disease

 

There are places where you have to wear a mask, but that doesn't mean life is somehow not normal. We (Florida) had mask mandates in grocery stores well into this year, but so what?

Florida just clocked nearly 33 000 new cases in a day, and about 2000 hospitalized, so its possible more places will start requiring masks again, and its possible less people will go out. Those who didn't get the jab are exposed, but that was their choice, so its on them if they get sick.

 

Was actually a 'vaccine'?

Are you operating under the (false) assumption that a 'vaccine' is something that prevents that prevents infection by a contagious disease 100% of the time with 100% efficacy? Because that's not the case. All vaccines vary in their general level of effectiveness both from person to person and from disease to disease. They also differ in how long the immune response they generate lasts.

Flu vaccines for example vary in effectiveness from year to year only provide protection for a few months and (from memory) are somewhere often only somewhere bewtween 50-60% effective in preventing infection. Meanwhile something like Gardasil 9 for example provides almost 100% protection against cervical cancer for decades.


What all vaccines have in common is that they reduce the chance of infection and failing that reduce the the severity of symptoms by priming the immune system to respond more effectively to the disease in question. By default this means they reduce the vital load carried carried (on average when measured across that % of the population that is vaccinated). That is what the COVID shots do i.e. what every other vaccine does. Like it or not the COVID shots are vaccines. This is a fact.

 

But that does not stop them from infecting other people.

 

Right. If I was unvaccinated, I'd keep that in mind, but I got the jabs so I live like the thing didn't even exist.

 

And that is exactly the problem... you can infect other people without even knowing it. You can even infect other people who have been vaccinated, it's been proven time and again.

 

If it was a 'vaccine' by the classic definition, then why did the CDC feel it was necessary the change the definition on their website?

It would not be the first time a definition of a word was changed to suit the need, but not the facts.

 

Sure. People who dont get the jabs, can get infected and get sick, and even die, while the vaccinated don't really need to care since its very unlikely they even notice it if they are infected. The more they go out and mingle, the better the chances they get a natural booster from someone they meet. I think being able to live a normal life and not worry about it is probably the biggest reason people take it.

 

So regardless of the reason someone is uninjected, you don't care if they get infected by a 'vaccinated' person, or if a 'vaccinated' person infects another 'vaccinated person, and they actually get ill or lord forbid, die.

Lovely position to take.

10,857 Fully Vaccinated Americans Have Died Of COVID-19; 30,000 Hospitalized (ibtimes.com)

 

Care? What are you doing to avoid infecting others? Stay home? Wear a mask everywhere you go? Wear rubber gloves? Do you encourage people to take the jabs?

The mask is designed to protect others from you, but I see lot of people like you raving AGAINST wearing a mask and taking the jabs. That's the opposite of caring, and sadly it is done simply because they feel they need to defend a political position. Why do you think they booed Trump when he said the jab is a good thing.

I care, and I wish everyone would get the jab. It is estimated to have saved 1.1 million American lives.

 

I don't think that's how things work. In fact, I've been wondering just exactly where Joe is planning to get this money, even at just $2/unit, it's $1 Billion. Spending originates in the House, who has to debate and pass a bill, get buy-in from the Senate, and then, and only then can money be spent. So, unless he's planning to use his own money, I'd like to know what the actual, legal, answer is to this. POTUS can't just decide on a random Tuesday to spend $1B on something that hasn't already been budgeted and passed by the Congress.

 

Death toll:
================
10 857 vaccinated
824 000 unvaccinated

The death toll is 78 times greater among the un-vaccinated

Need I say more?

Get the jab!

 

~ All very good points .

 

I could still completely support vaccination but in the interest of good math and science have to point out that over 600k of those deaths took place before we had a vaccine.

 

The stupid idea pushed by anti-vaxxers, ironically, that the Covid-19 vaccines are not "vaccines" is utterly preposterous, and even if their mechanism of action / platform differs a little from older vaccines, that difference is negligible. Instead of presenting a pre-made antigen, they instruct cells to make that antigen, then degrade rapidly and leave the body, at which point that host cell-made antigen behaves exactly like the antigens other more traditional vaccines used to introduce. Yes, of course the mRNA vaccines are vaccines. And yes, vaccines vary from almost 100% efficacy for a lifetime (e.g. Hep B series) to transient and variable efficacy like the flu shot (down to 16 or 20% efficacy in some years).

This is a neat World Health Organization infographic about vaccine efficacy and effectiveness:

https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection

 

The CDC was reviewing its definition of vaccinated (as in protected to the fullest extent possible by a vaccine) in relation to COVID. This was because as time progressed it became apparent that the immunity offered by certain vaccines waned rapidity i.e, with about 6 months of people being vaccinated. This meant that, in theory people could only really be considered 'fully vaccinated' out till about the 6 month mark after their second shot. Beyond that point however many people might well become unvaccinated in the sense they were no longer protected to any significant degree by the vaccine.

They did not consider redefining their definition of VACCINE.

So once again Vaccinated (a verb), Vaccine (a noun).

 

Then you'll probably agree they were unvaccinated.

 

You'll agree they couldn't have been vaccinated. It didn't exist.

 

Right, - they were unvaccinated.

 

Demographics matter.

So vaccinated infecting unvaccinated is part of your 'need I say more' category?

 

Changing 'definitions' does not actually change the basis of a word.

I'm not an 'anti-vaxxer' if you want it, get it. If you don't want it, don't get it. The idea that some people feel other people should be coerced into getting it is the part that is absolutely WRONG.

 

What else are the vaccinated supposed to do? Shrink-wrap themselves in order to protect those who refuse to protect themselves? Everyone has had the opportunity to protect themselves and those who refused are on their own.

 

It's not that they 'can' do more, it's the idea that they sell themselves as morally superior, when all they are doing is reducing their own symptoms if they catch it, yet paint those who are not injected as evil and vile creatures. They aren't protecting anyone but themselves.

And they have been fed this claptrap from the media, the White House for divisive purposes, and bolstered by other 'morally superior' people.