Argument from complexity and evolution

That is the point..... How does one wait for something when it is designed to be a metaphor?

 

I think complexity is such an ambiguous idea by itself that it's hard to use it as an argument for or against anything. Depending on your perspective, you could argue that nothing is complex, or that everything is complex. As the OP'er already noted, the Grand Canyon seems complex to some simply because it's so big. Even using the appearance of design as a measure of complexity doesn't seem sufficient to me. I could design a program that looks really complex, but is actually very simple, and I could design a program that looks really simple but is actually complex.

From my perspective, I agree that the results of evolution look really complex. Evolution itself is fairly simple from an algorithmic perspective, though. Random errors occur and the viable results of those errors get reproduced. In contrast, the algorithm that might create the diverse life we see on the planet without using evolution would be ridiculously complex.

Anyway, I like the sentiment of the OP and I think it makes sense on its face. It needs more elaboration in order to stand up to any scrutiny, though.

 

We should try to agree on what the definition of complexity. The biology definition (per basic definitions) is horrible - http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Complexity - Complexity
(Science: molecular biology) The number of different sequences of base-pairs in a particular genome.
See… Horrible. So I will give you what I am talking about dealing with complexity.

I think complexity is when you have something simple and it transforms itself into something complex! So, complexity to me is crystal caverns… What was it before? Open space… How did it become something that beautiful? A process that can only be describes as a miracle!

Again, I will go off of where I work and what I do. I work for the Dept of Interior. What we do is deal with mineral and environments (ecosystems). A simple question is – how does a mineral come to be? I think that is complexity. Gasses from the melted rock below coming together as it cools to become a mineral like gold or silver… Look at Natural Gas? Each of these and every mineral to me is complexity.

What do you look at as complex? What is your definition. Let’s start there and I will be more than HAPPY to discuss this with you.

 

Metaphors can be prophecies too. One doesn't exclude the other.

 

Interesting… Do you know why there isn’t a program that shows evolution using the basic concepts to what evolution is (with algorithms’) … Random mutation – natural selection (sexual selection), and genetic drift… You can randomly make (as I did) a game of poker… where basically everything is random, but you can’t take something that is random and get something out of nothing – it doesn’t work like that. That is why there isn’t a program that we can look at that shows how evolution works…

NOW – back to the topic at hand…

 

GOOD GOD!!!

Did anybody read this?!?! If not I suggest you do... I think this is worthy of it's own thread!!!

READ THIS!!!

 

complexity into simplicity is what represents the 'evolution'

 

I was making fun of the post... it's retarded...

 

Yeah, the Biological definition clearly isn't useful here. I guess what first made me think about it was one of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron's arguments. They argued cars, coke bottles and some other things.

However, in order to get rid of some of the other obvious arguments, for instance, crystals, I think we would have to limit ourselves to objects that we don't have a decent explanation for, apart for evolution. The structure of a crystal might be considered complex (even though I personally would see it as simple, since it's one molecule repeated a lot of times) we do have a simple explanation for it, since we know how to build crystals and we know how nature builds crystals. Thus, the construction of crystals does not require a god, whereas the argument from complexity indicate that humans do require such a god.

 

Complexity… I see where you are going… I’ll try my best!

I think minerals and humans are one in the same. Complex. We know how they are both made now. What is not understood is how the process of both started to begin with. We have no records of humans and certain minerals being around since the rise of this planet. The “complexity” isn’t the look at us now, it’s more of how did that happen? In my example I will use “gold”. How does gold come into existence? That is complex. About as complex as how we come into existence. It’s about small things coming together to make something bigger. That is complexity. When dealing with, per the Creationist argument (which I really don’t know – so this is a guess from what I have read in my threads of evolution) complexity is the eye.

I can’t do it… Sorry… you might need to talk about this with a Creationist… Well, I’ll try one more time - all I can say is that minerals are complex in how they come about. We live in a system that is closed. The molecules that make certain minerals should have ran out. Billions of years? They create Gold, Crystals, Rubies… How do these minerals still get created? Where do the ingredients come from? Does the Earth just make them…? The complexity in our close loop system can require a God per say. Something or someone needs to be feeding the and cracking the machine that we call Earth. Who or what is feeding Earth it’s energy (entropy)…

Man… I hope that made sense – out of my element…