Atheism is to Belief what 'not guilty' is to innocent.

When we put someone on trial because of the presumption of innocence we have to prove that a person is guilty. If that proof is not forthcoming we say 'not guilty'. That doesn't mean we declare the person innocent it just means we do not have the proof to declare someone guilty. Essentially a not guilty judgement is a NON belief in guilt not a belief in innocence

In the same way Atheism is not a belief in 'there is not god' it is a Non belief in God.

As an atheist I do not say 'there is definitely no god' all I say is that there is not sufficient evidence for the existence of god to lead me to believe that he does, indeed, exist.

Why is that so difficult for theists to understand?

 

I think it's because people tend to confuse the two as meaning the same thing. Why that is? Well that's a different topic.

 

I think many theists realise the difference but they are dishonest as it doesn't suit their agenda so they cling to this idea that we all have a beleif that there is no god.

I am no militant. I would like there to be an all loving deity and I have often invited them to give me evidence but most of them are just insulting or demand that I search for evidence for their claims or some nonsense about 'opening your heart'.

 

Or they'll say "well you haven't read the bible" and when that claim is demonstrated to be false then it becomes "well when you let Jesus into your heart, then you'll see the truth of the bible". That assumes that in order to find evidence you must already believe. Well that's not reasonable or logical.

 

I'm not a theist...and I think most of what you just wrote is bunk.

It has been my experience that atheists, for the most part, use the descriptor "atheist" primarily because they have a "belief" that no gods exist. You hear it in the wording they use when speaking with theists..."imaginary" 'mythological' "silly" and such.

So...you tell us that you do not say, "there is not god."

Lemme ask ya: Do you "believe" no gods exist?

 

No. I have no belief about gods. I am open minded. I am not an antitheist. I am waiting for proof. Until such proof comes I have no reason to beleive.

 

Okay...sounds like me.

Mostly, I do not use descriptors...but when I do, I use "agnostic."

Why do you choose "atheist" which is used by many people who do assert there are no gods...and which many non-atheists, rightly or wrongly, consider someone who denies the existence of gods?

Why not agnostic...or even non-theist?

And here is how I describe my position. Are there elements you disagree with?

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

 

As far as I can tell, there's no reason to believe gods exist.

 

See I use Agnostic Atheist. Since Agnostic linguistically refers to knowledge, as in "I don't know" and Atheism is belief in that "I lack the belief" so in that sense I don't know but I lack a belief that god(s) exist.

 

Gnostic theist
Agnostic theist
Agnostic atheist
Gnostic atheist

Using this four-tiered system overcomes much of the baggage that the words "theist" and "atheist" have when used alone.

 

I could not agree more, Electron.

I don't "believe" gods exist.

I also don't "believe" they do not exist.

What is your point?

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Thank you, Loki.

I can see the reason for using "agnostic" to denote not knowing if gods exist or not.

I do not see the reason for using "atheist" to denote a lack of belief.

Can we discuss that?

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I don't. I think "atheist" is being misused.

 

Well it's down to the etymology of the words Atheism, A = lack of, Theism = belief in god(s). Then A = lack of, Gnostic = Knowledge. Belief and knowledge aren't the same. Atheism if the statement of belief, and in this case it's the lack of belief. Of course there are Atheists who believe positively that no gods exist, more accurately they would be called Gnostic Atheists.

 

But "theist" is being properly used. Correct?

 

The etymology of the word "atheism" is NOT a (without) + theism (belief in a god) = without a belief in a god.

That is a contrivance of some modern Internet atheists.

The etymology of atheism derives from the Greek through the French...and essentially is a (without) + theos (a god) = without a god.

Belief plays no part in the word's etymology.

Atheism actually came into the English language BEFORE theism.

 

Without god(s), exactly, the Greek describes one who lives without god(s). How does one tell? Belief in god(s). Atheism on the other hand, based on the Greek (Atheist) then gives the metric of how to identify one without god(s). That metric is belief in god(s) as that's how you determine one is without god(s).

 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=atheis&searchmode=none

Belief has nothing whatever to do with the word atheist.

As I said, use of that meme was a contrivance of Internet atheists who wanted to assert that they are without beliefs.

It is absurd...as a reading of most atheistic posts indicate that there are very strongly held beliefs my many (probably most) Internet atheists. The "belief" is that gods do not exist.

 

The only belief in question is of the god question. There are Atheists who believe in crystal healing and other such things. How do you tell one is without god(s) except as a statement of belief?

 

If one asserts one is without gods...

....one is asserting a blind guess that there are no gods.

Remember...the use of "atheist" as a descriptor...is a self-made decision.

 

And that descriptor is a statement of their belief in the question of the god question. How do you tell someone is without god(s) other than a statement of the belief?

 

It looks like we agree here.

Your definition of atheist differs from mine, but I'm not all that interested in talking about words.
I call myself both atheist and agnostic, which some people don't get. So be it.

 

I agree with that.

Atheists BELIEVE there are no gods.

I've been saying that right along.

They have an active BELIEF that there are no gods.

They like to claim they are non-believers on the question...BUT THEY ARE NOT.

They, like the theists they show contempt for, have BELIEFS about whether there are or are not gods in the REALITY of existence.

But the WORD atheist...which is what I was talking about...does not derive from "belief."

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We're good, Electron.

Thanks you for discussing this with me.

 

There is a difference between understanding and creating ones own understanding, which can be far removed from an actual understanding. For example some believe that atheists cannot be moral people as from their perspective morality requires a belief in God. So instead of understanding that a belief in God is not required to be a moral person, they create their own understanding that adheres to their dogmatic narrative.

 

There is yet another level that is adding more confusion to this. It is not just what we know or do not know, what we believe and do not believe about the existence of God. There is the philosophical question on whether it is not knowable at all. We may believe that it is not knowable that God exists or the belief that it can be conceivably be known, but is not yet.

here's the big picture, guys. if we can't or do not have our terminology right, how on earth can we sneer at theists who haven't got it. Face it the first thing any of us have to do it figure out how people in the conversation are using the terms every time. I no longer spend the 15 minutes arguing terminology. I tell people what I am. believe and claim to know and then accept however they choose to apply which words for what concept.

By the way, I call myself an agnostic atheist who does not know God exists, and does not believe in them . We obviously have to be very patient with each other and with theists while we get our stories right if we discuss this, so long as atheists and agnostics take three pages of posts to get anywhere.

 

Atheist is to one who identifies with the statement of belief found in Atheism. Just like Theist is one who identifies with the statement of belief found in Theism. These words (Theism, Atheism) are statements of belief.

 

Atheism = a belief

exactly the same as...

Abstinence = a sex position!