Cheatocracy - a mutant form of democracy

Discussion in 'Political Science' started by yangforward, Aug 23, 2023.

  1. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cheatocracy is the same as democracy up until the election has been decided
    and the winner is in place.

    Then the winner discards his campaign promises and does something else,
    even the exact opposite.
     
    GrayMan, robini123 and modernpaladin like this.
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    50,831
    Likes Received:
    22,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It sounds like what you are describing is democracy.
     
  3. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    One example is the Biden 2020 election.

    He promised to combat Climate Change,
    to bring costs down, to spend 'every minute
    of every working day' working to make
    Americans lives better. To visit the Southern Border,
    and to bring 'expertise' in foreign policy.

    'Expertise' seems to have meant to send
    huge quantities of weapons to Kyiv,
    rather than smaller ones. As for diplomacy,
    that word is too long for him.

    He is blind to what our allies do for us,
    and he doesn't seem to think about partnerships
    with other countries, just how to fight a war
    against them.
     
    GrayMan likes this.
  4. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Bidden is trying too hard to be a war-time President.
    We don't need another one of those, nor
    can we afford another one.

    As much as people moaned about Donald Trump,
    he didn't start a war and he did as well as
    could be expected against the unknown
    disease COVID.
     
  5. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And while the US dukes it out with
    Russia in a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine

    most of the rest of the world is joining
    together in large trading blocs, forming
    mutually beneficial relationships.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,342
    Likes Received:
    11,059
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unfortunately there is no better alternative.

    There was an old Dr. Who episode titled Vengeance on Varos (1985), based on the premise of a direct democracy where the population watching on television could vote to inflict a ray that would cause pain and even horrible mutating effects on their leader if they did not think he was doing a good job.
    But even that storyline tried to show what was flawed with such a concept, the population taking out their disgruntlement on a leader who was faced with a difficult scenario -- potentially blamed for the consequences of whatever decision he made either way.
     
    yangforward likes this.
  7. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There has to be. The US monopolizes the position at the bottom of the Current Account balances,
    and the US has been involved in more was since WW2 than any other nation.

    The UK is a close second and is also the nation most often second to bottom on the CA balance.

    And the 'top' of the US government believes the world is still in the 1960s.
     
  8. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    9,281
    Likes Received:
    2,799
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There probably is. Find a way to have the smartest people make the decisions based upon the evidence and greatest good combined with respect for fairness and rights. I guess it would be technocracy. There's always an undercurrent of democracy though. Technocracy I vaguely described could only exist if enough people buy into it. With the current culture here, they wouldn't. Any system: A republic, a monarchy, fascism require that enough people buy in or fail to care enough to take a risk for change.

    Of course conspiracy theorists would almost always be at odds with an ideal system of government that deals in facts.
     
    yangforward likes this.
  9. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If there is zero connection between what a politician says and what he / she / it / they do /does, then
    the public may be left with zero control over the government so it isn't a democracy.
     
  10. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    An alternative to voting for a person would be to vote for policies.
     
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,342
    Likes Received:
    11,059
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, and that sounds nice, but there are two potential big problems with that.

    First, the politicians in power can block those policies if they don't like them. We have all sorts of examples of this with state courts overturning referendums where the people voted on something. (Like Proposition 187 in 1994 in California) Or the politicians can just ignore it, or put on a show of following the policy even though they aren't really doing anything meaningful to support it.

    The other problem is that in many cases the public masses are just stupid, and do not fully understand the complexities of an issue. The average voter usually can't or will not spend that much time researching the intricacies of all issues. There have been some referendums placed on state ballots over the years that were designed to trick the people. (Fortunately most of them do not pass)

    I am mostly in favor of direct voting on the issues, but the majority of people are ignorant about how stupid the average person in society is.
    Traditionally, direct democracies in history existed in situations where the vote was limited to a smaller and more specific class of the population.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2023
    yangforward likes this.
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,342
    Likes Received:
    11,059
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This has been a problem throughout history.
    Kings could almost do whatever they wanted. But if they went too overboard in abuses and ruining the country, there was a possibility they might be assassinated, or face a rebellion during a time of national weakness.

    Political theorists decided it was not a good idea to place too much power into the hands of any one person, and that there should be some checks and balances on the power of the king. So we see things like a house of nobles form in Poland (the sejm), Sweden, and even Russia at one time (council of boyars in Kievan Rus).
    Germany had a more elaborate arrangement under the "Holy Roman Empire", which would often elect one of the more powerful amongst themselves as the "emperor", but who in reality only held more limited power and influence over the confederation. It was easier to control the smaller kings and nobles than the more powerful ones, a distinction they actually officially recognized and codified into law, so if you were a king of one of the great states you did not have to answer to any court but rather theoretically answered directly to the emperor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2023
    yangforward likes this.
  13. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, very true, we need beoth the policies and the politicians to implement the policies.

    The problem behind the 'stupidity of the masses' is the dishonesty of the language we use.

    I guess that originates in the CIA and State Department and media where the news is
    created, and the White house and other politicians and the 'think tanks'.
     
  14. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's my idea of an exercise on disentangling the language:

    1 How much money was allocated in 2022 by the US for defense?
    2 Who started the war in Ukraine?
    3 What have the casualties been on each side of the Ukraine war?

    I've heard the complaint that people are entitled to their own opinions
    but not to their own facts.

    This criticism is not useful because 'facts' are worded to mislead
    which is why it is so difficult to get any sense out of anybody.

    And that is why people can argue about the 'facts' themselves
    at length. Evaluation of who is right and who is wrong is
    usually impossible when the 'facts' themselves are wrong.
     
  15. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here's my attempt at answers:

    1 How much money was allocated in 2022 by the US for defense?
    HOMELAND SECURITY, 2022 : $76.299 billion in total funding

    As was discovered on 9/11 the Department of Defense had no
    direct responsibility for defense.

    Subsequently the Department of Homeland Security was
    established, moving in various existing assets that could
    be used for defense, which now amount to somewhere
    in the region of 10% of total military expenditure.
     
  16. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The other 90% contributes nothing to actual defense.

    Take one example: spending on aircraft carriers.
    Aircraft can be used for defense but putting them on an aircraft
    carrier and taking them to the other side of the world
    ensures they won't be used for defense.

    When it comes to defense the carriers are more of a liability
    than an asset.

    Aircraft land bases can have longer and wider runways,
    are easier to land on because they don't buck in the waves,
    and are more difficult to sink.

    If for some reason aircraft are wanted on the other side
    of the world there is in-flight refueling.
     
  17. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    2,817
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Trophy Points:
    113
    2 Who started the war in Ukraine?

    Well on Feb 24th of 2022 AD, Joe Biden arrived late to give the press
    conference and gave the sort of impression he was getting the latest
    updates and the situation was just then unfolding.

    He did not explicitly state the war had started just then or even that
    day, because the Gen Sec of NATO stated it had started in 2014,
    which is correct.

    What actually happened was 8 years after the conflict started, and
    8 days after the weapons arrived from the US and Kyiv started using
    the new shells to bombard Donetsk, then finally Russia moved some military forces in.

    So having arrived 8 years late Russia were then blamed for starting
    the war.

    On Feb 24 2022 Joey Biden did his best to make in sound like the whole war
    had just started that very morning.
     

Share This Page