Civil war Books From the Southern Perspective

Eric Foner is a fine objective historian. He is no Marxist and does not discuss the CW and slavery in those economic terms and themes. Those who oppose Foner are despotic anti-Lincoln homers who can't stand the South being rightfully judged. christianforum is a Christian identity board site that people should sign up for and sit back and watch what is being written. Oh, my goodness, truly heretical.

 

1stvermont is going to tell us who the primary author of the CW threads in christianforums.

And?

 

Thank you, and it may well be because I have no "axe to grind" in this discussion.

By and large, I tend to remain highly neutral in discussions about history. The past is the past, and I discuss it in terms of what happened without trying to inject either my own personal opinions, or modern beliefs that apply today. Yes, I do indeed have my own beliefs, but they have no place in such a discussion so I leave them out.

I consider myself to be an analyst, and consider all things simply as "data", and try to pick that which is most applicable. To do not try to "bend" those facts any one way or another, since it makes absolutely no difference. My belief on things like the difference in platform between the Whigs and Democrats does not matter. So for example I only give information that is relevant to a discussion and do not inject my own beliefs on if either the 1830s to 1850s Democrats belief that the rights of the "Sovereignty of the People", is no more or less important than the Whig's belief of the importance on following the "Rule of law and protecting the minority against majority tyranny".

But I do recognize that this conflict in philosophy ultimately is what helped lead the nation into a Civil War.

Because ultimately it is not important, and trying to look back through rose colored glasses 160+ years later is really no more than mental masturbation. It may be something that is really important to some individuals, but had little to do with the actual conflict that resulted a decade later. Other then some people in trying to use them as justifications for their own beliefs.

 

Please tell us who is the original author of most of those posts in the forums that you have cited, 1stvermont.

 

From now on I will just ask you to support your claims.


I am not surprised you would think so. Supporting this however is a very different matter. Others would disagree. Those historians who are not radical leftist with an agenda or as you call them "despotic anti-Lincoln homers who can't stand the South being rightfully judged" shows you have no knowledge of the topic you post on. Not surprising to any reader. Neither is your conclusion given your opinions on this thread need no justification or support and you being fine with ignoring all historical facts.


"christianforum is a Christian identity board site that people should sign up for and sit back and watch what is being written. Oh, my goodness, truly heretical"

Please support your claims.

Question begging epithet

when someone imports bias often emotional language to support a claim "ignorant" "dishonest" "stupid" "gullible" or other disparaging remarks

Insults are the lowest level of debate and when you resort to it, it suggests you have little else to work with.


Starkey, I was wondering if you would debate me 1v1 on any of these topics related to the civil war. Thanks.

 

Me. Was that not clear?

 

Foner is a quality authority, but I have seen nothing in your work for you to consider yourself as such.

Oh, nonsense, 1stvermont, I have insulted no one.

I am talking about your methodology, your sourcing, and your argumentation, not you, unless you have crossed the line in history writing.

You admit that you are quoting and referencing yourself without notifying your readers.

@Mushroom, 1stvermont has been quoting himself from CF without telling us before.

 

1stvermont is on ignore now.

 

Oh, I have known this for ages. I realized that very quickly when one of his quotes seemed wrong, so I tried to research it.

And the only reference I ever found for the quote is amazingly posts that he himself had made on other forums. And this was quote by Abraham Lincoln, probably the most quoted President in US history. But amazingly, his quote only appears in messages that he himself wrote in other forums.

Most of his quotes are either badly taken out of context, or outright fraudulent. And any attempt to call him on it is met with the same nonsensical response, and yet another wall of nonsensical quotes with no context as to why they are even being given.

And you are right, he is not to be taken seriously at all. He simply repeats the same posts over and over again, as if vomiting the same thing ad nauseum will make people follow his beliefs.

 

so in other words you wont support fonor is not a marxist liberal lincoln cultist.
you will not support your bigoted claims about a christian forum.
and you will not support your statements about civil war related topics.
You will not defend yourself in a 1v1 debate either.
You will make false unsupported claims about me or my posts and than admit to not reading them .

So what is it your doing on the thread? on a topic you clearly dont have great knowledge about.


You have discovered that me posting threads i have done [and said so entire thread if you read my posts] on other sites is in fact me. So you caught up to everyone else on every forum, so that is something.

 

Or, we could read my response that gave the reference and realize it was never a quote directly from Lincoln [as you misunderstood] but from leorn Bennet JR.

https://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Glory-Abraham-Lincolns/dp/0874850851

I post scores of relative historical documents, and you guys do nothing, and this is the response. It shows these true.




“People dont believe lies because they have to, but because they want to”
-Malcolm Muggeridge


“The truth, indeed, is something that mankind, for some mysterious reason, instinctively dislikes. Every man who tries to tell it is unpopular, and even when, by the sheer strength of his case, he prevails, he is put down as a scoundrel.”
H. L. Menck




Heresyphobia- Fear of deviation from traditional doctrine.

Gnosiophobia- Fear of knowledge.

Phronemophobia- Fear of thinking.

 

Yes, Mushroom, he quotes himself without acknowledging it.

Some of the quotes attributed to others cannot be found.

The poster has taken the Lost Cause defense to the extreme.

 

Could you please support your claims.

“The abuse never discusses evidence, only denounces what is called “Neo-Confederate” and “Lost Cause” mythology. These are both political terms of abuse that have no real meaning and are designed to silence your enemy unheard...In fact, no great historical question can ever be closed off by a slogan as long as we are free to think.”
Clyde Wilson is a distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at the University of South Carolina

 

His next post may post the Lost Cause homer, Clyde Wilson.

Addendum: I have been informed that he did introduce Wilson.

 

Oh really?

Then kindly explain this. This is your own post, and you present it as a quote from President Lincoln:

There, that is your own quote. Made to appear that it is a quote from President Lincoln itself.

So either you are admitting that your own reference is wrong (which makes your entire claim based on this reference wrong), or you are simply hoping that by throwing up enough crap you can somehow make some forget what the actual quote or fact is.

You present it as a quote, and you then tried to claim that it came from either a book that none of us can reference, or that maybe you "did not get it right because you read it years earlier and were reciting it from memory".

No, that is not how it works. You can not go back and change history, the forum here is actually pretty good at remembering things like that, as are those of us that take such debates seriously.

Unlike you, I do not revise history. If I say something is a quote, it is a quote. I even generally provide references that anybody can verify. You, you make posts with quotes and references nobody can verify, then say that others are misrepresenting you. I stand by my claims of earlier, and will continue to do so with references that anybody can validate. You make claims that nobody can validate, then scream that others are twisting your words.

So please, tell us how that quote was not a quote, and that somehow I misunderstood.

 

Mushroom well explains 1stvermont's problems with proper quoting.

 

Maybe that is because I do not argue, I debate.

As I often say, I am largely neutral, and dispassionate in most matters. My only interest is accuracy and facts. I have no "axe to grind", and my own beliefs matter little in most cases. My main role is generally as an "ombudsman for truth", and I largely could not care less for things such as "beliefs" or "feelings".

And interestingly, a great many times I even post things that oppose my own beliefs in a subject, simply because that is where the facts point to. That is why many who watch me in here will see me debate against somebody in one topic., then support them in another one. It is not personal, it is simply a matter of what the facts support.

If it was personal or my own beliefs at stake, there are many topics where I would be making entirely different claims. I would maybe bend facts to support Apache, or Soldier because we quite often we agree on matters. But that is not what is important to me, it is truth and accuracy.

And I can tell quite often who is reasonable. More often than not, there are many in here which admit they made a mistake and thank me for a correction. Those are people interested in debate and facts, not simply trying to show that their wang is bigger-better-more impressive than mine.

And yes, I do the same. If I see facts that show I am wrong, I have no problem saying "Yea, you are right. My bad."

That is why in places of higher education, they teach "Debate classes" and have "Debate Clubs". They do not have "Argument classes" and have "Argument Clubs".

And one of the things I use to this day that I got from my time in college is the "APA Style" Citation. While places like here do not exactly favor the exact usage, I try to follow it as best as I can because it is considered the "Gold Standard" for referencing things. And if somebody can not reference their claims, I tend to increasingly dismiss them the more they are not referenced (or referenced with something unverifiable, biased, or simply sketchy).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_style

No, I am not some egg-head. I am primarily a grunt with less than 1 year of college, but who has an interest in facts and proof. And to me, if something can not be proven, it largely does not exist.
​

 

1stvermont is a Lost Cause homer, which is his right.

He suffers from confirmation bias.

And he does not know how to debate.

 

If as to appear as a quote from Lincoln, would you not think I would source it as i do all other Lincoln quotes? so for example

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglas Debate Charleston, Illinois

“I agree with Judge Douglas he [African Americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment.”
-Abraham Lincoln 1858 Response to Supreme court Dread Scott ruling

“Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals”
-Abraham Lincoln The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln

“I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
-Abraham Lincoln

“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[ Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
-Abraham Lincoln


“I wish to make and to keep the distinction between the existing institution, and the extension of it, so broad, and so clear, that no honest man can misunderstand me, and no dishonest one, successfully misrepresent me.
-Abraham Lincoln 1854


"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
-Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854

“It is not rather our duty to make labor more respectable by preserving all black competition, [free and slave] especially in the territories”
-Abraham Lincoln

“Holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable".
-Abraham Lincoln


Also why would I use a quote to refer to him in the third person. Clearly as I said, this was a quote from bennett about Lincoln.

or as i pointed out last post and this, you misapplied my quote applying it to lincoln [unlike how I quote from him over a dozen times] and i gave you the source.

it seems you missed my post a few pages back [i quoted yours] the quote comes from this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Glory-Abraham-Lincolns/dp/0874850851

I would like to believe that but given many of the posters, it seems they do change history. But I cant help you imagining a quote of Lincoln that I never applied to him, that is a war in your head not mine. Whenever i quote him I write, Abraham Lincoln, as i do in my op.

Or, you misunderstood one single quote. Go ahead and start sourcing and making arguments. I look forward to it.

 

Glad for your comments as always. But as usual your conclusion comes from your desire rather than truth. He misunderstood and applies a quote to Lincoln that I never did apply to him.



If as to appear as a quote from Lincoln, would you not think I would source it as i do all other Lincoln quotes? so for example

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglas Debate Charleston, Illinois

“I agree with Judge Douglas he [African Americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment.”
-Abraham Lincoln 1858 Response to Supreme court Dread Scott ruling

“Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals”
-Abraham Lincoln The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln

“I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
-Abraham Lincoln

“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[ Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
-Abraham Lincoln


“I wish to make and to keep the distinction between the existing institution, and the extension of it, so broad, and so clear, that no honest man can misunderstand me, and no dishonest one, successfully misrepresent me.
-Abraham Lincoln 1854


"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
-Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854

“It is not rather our duty to make labor more respectable by preserving all black competition, [free and slave] especially in the territories”
-Abraham Lincoln

“Holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable".
-Abraham Lincoln


Also why would I use a quote to refer to him in the third person. Clearly as I said, this was a quote from bennett about Lincoln.


https://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Glory-Abraham-Lincolns/dp/0874850851

 

Holy crap my apologies Mush. I reread the section and that was suppose to be a quote of what Lincoln said. It was from Forced into glory. He said it to multiple close friends and white house authorities all quoted in Forced into glory. It is a 600 page book and I will have to dig into it. My apologies. Not only that, it was the emancipation proclamation. I had it in the wrong section. I need an editor.

 

You need a digital editor that will give you proper bibliographic citation, 1stvermont.

I don't think anyone really cares about your playing with Lost Cause southern revisionism, but it would be nice to easily check your sources and page numbers.

It would neat to see you support your claims.

 

And this is why verifiable is so important.

If any claim about pretty much anybody is only found in a single reference and nowhere else, odds are it is not valid.

 

We are asking 1stvermont to cite and source traditionally.

 

Very true and thank you very much for pointing that out. That was an editing error on my part it was suppose to go with the ep section. What I will defend if you object to is the point I made the quote. That the EP was forced onto Lincoln and he did so only as to save the union not out of a desire to push the abolitionist agenda. To find the direct reference would be to search though a 600 page book that is less than organized. But what I can do is give multiple biographies of Lincoln from friends and close associates all saying he said the same sort of stuff at the time of the ep. Herdon, Lamon,Whitney, Guowski etc all saying similar language used by Lincoln at the time. But if you accept that he only did so as a military necessity and only to persevere the union, not as an abolitionist, than there would be no reason. So what I am saying is it was not one remote source, but multiple close friends/ associates who all said lincoln told them similar stuff and language in the white house. If you want those sources i can find them as they are in bennets EP chapter. His book is very disorganized and all over the place but does have some material by topic together.