Coercive Capitalism vs. Voluntary Socialism

And then there is the real world.

Definition of CAPITALISM
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

cap·i·tal·ism/ˈkæp ɪ tlˌɪz əm/ Show Spelled [kap-i-tl-iz-uh m] Show IPA
noun
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism

Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets and capital accumulation.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

 

We have several forum members who seem to think they have been appointed arbitors of what words mean. Sufficiently full of themselves that they actually believe it.

 

It baffles me at how these people become so twisted and misinformed.

it's monsterous.

its like they haven't ever picked up a book beyond dr.suess

 

Pay them less than their silly line graphs have convinced them they should be paid

 

Nah, its just that their ideology trumps the real world around them. Socialism is never what it HAS BEEN in the past or present and will always be as good as they can imagine it to be in their own mind.

 

The gov't is the puppet. Multinational's and lobbyists are the masters. If you want to change things one must reduce the power of the puppeteers.

 

Uh no the government isn't the puppet see Microsoft anto trust lawsuit and the collapse of WAMU. The government is the extortionist in charge. You either kick in or you get kicked out or at least kicked. The people with the tanks and cops and regulators are the slave holders not the people with the money. The Federal government of the United States of America is in certain regards the operator of the largest protection racket the world has yet seen. If you have the tanks and guns and cops you can get all the money you want.

 

Is that why we are running $1T deficits per year. $16.2T debt? They have all the money? Yes, they are the legal/enforcer. But they can't hold their jobs forever. We have elections. If they don't get reelected they lose their power. But the big money can just buy the next person in line.

 

Exactly so government continues to expand beyond the people's ability to pay for it and not just the federal govenment either. Government always seeks to expand it's power. It can't help itself anymore than you can help breathing. Everytime some idiot somewhere yells "There ought to be a law" the power of government over the citizenry grows.

Elections effect about 1/100th of 1% of the bureacracies that actually runs things. The Pols are essentially now cyphers that can be replaced in part or in whole without having any real impact on the Bureaucracy that writes and enforces 95% of the rules and regulations that are currently in play.

 

The problem is that capitalism without regulation invariably involves the infringements upon the Rights of Others. Let me provide some examples.

Most "capitalists" believe that the individual has the Right to Own real estate but, in fact, that is false. They can have a "Right to Use" real estate but no one can actually own the Earth. Pragmatic restrictions upon the Use Of Real Estate are necessary to protect others in society such as prohibitions against toxic dumping or the releasing of heavy metals into the water supply.

No individual or enterprise has a "Right to Pollute" and if we, as a society, decide that we will allow limited pollution for economic reasons then that can be accomplished under the laws and regulations of the nation but that does not imply a "Right" to pollute. From my libertarian background I oppose laws that prohibit pollution because the default should be that pollution is always prohibited unless there is a regulation that allows it. Pollution violates my inalienable Rights as a Person and unless a pragmatic reason can be presented where my Rights should be infringed upon then it should be prohibited, period. If we as a society want to allow CO2 pollution then we should address how much and by what sources under regulations as opposed to having to pass legislation and regulations to restrict an individual or enterprise from violating our individual Rights to clean air (land and water).

 

???? They cant do that because the other property owners also have rights. Individuals have rights not to be poisoned. NOTHING inherent within capitalism that would allow such a thing. Fundamental to capitalism is the protection of property rights. You have some silly, simplistic view that leads you to think capitalism involves the absence of regulations against harming others, it doesnt. One only needs to look at the enviromental record of nations who consider themselves socialists or communists to see that capitalism can be good for the enviroment.

 

OMG, really. Lake eerie was never polluted? Capitalism would never allow for it? LOL.
Maybe in your text book dreams of capitalism, but we live in the real world and the greed for ever increasing profits destroys the text book version.

 

We're dealing with abandoned deep rock mines here in Washington that are polluting our water supply with heavy metals. Apparently "capitalism" didn't prevent this from happening.

We can look at coal fired electrical power plants in the Northeast that are dumping thousands of metric tons of CO2 and radioactive waste into the air that is causing acid rain, contributing to AGW, and possibly contributing to the increase in autism in children. Where is the pragmatic regulation to stop this pollution that is violating the Rights of Every American?

 

Can a business function if everyone made the exact same salary from the CEO down to an admin who mostly answers the phone or organizes a calendar? If there were full time cleaning people, do they deserve the same as the people marketing the company or managing the IT network?

 

Science wasnt able to predict those effects at the time. Has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitaqlism doesnt imply an absence of enviromental regulations. Im sure abandoned state owned mines pollute just like capitalist owned mines do.

Washington state? You have a lot of federal land in Washington. You sure it wasnt mines on federal land that are polluting the water supply? Socialism at its finest.

You can probably find even more state owned coal plants in China dumping even more CO2 and radioactive waste into the air. Has nothing to do with capitalism.

 

It's abandoned. Nothing would have prevented it. Here in Milwaukee, the MMSD (Metropolitan Milwaukee Sewerage District) regularly dumps millions of gallons of diluted sewage into Lake Michigan, causing E Coli outbreaks and closing beaches.

That certainly isn't "Capitalism" doing that either.

Perhaps you should stop using perfection as a whipping boy to attack Capitalism.

What takes place with power plants may be the most regulated environment on the Planet. You're claiming this is an example of Capitalism?

Hold on. Coal-fired power plants dumping radioactive waste? Link please.

I'll thank you to peddle faster right now. With your views, you couldn't possibly have a computer plugged into a wall.

'Cuz we know that you aren't a massive hypocrite.

Hell - why stop there with possible effects? I'll just go ahead and say that possibly contributes to massive stupidity on the part of moderators!



I'd like a credible link to the autism claim please.

You think that power plants aren't already heavily regulated? Producing power is an incredibly involved process that creates some pollution. Your hyperbole fails.

 

This is not a proposition of socialism so what is the question addressing? According to what I've read on socialism the "pay" is based upon the individual's contribution to the enterprise and a CEO contributes a lot more than the admin answering a phone or organizing a calendar.

 

Not sure what you are babbling on about now. Never said lake Erie wasn't polluted, never claimed that capitalis wouldn't allow it. Governments that don't protect property and individual rights allow it. Be they capitalist, socialist or communist.

 

I agree. We live in a world of corrupt world. This is why power should be as dispursed as possible. Big central governments allow for big corruption.

 

When most people use the term socialism, they are referring to 90 percent of forms of socialism and not the 10 percent that have been dreamed of in the last few decades. Absurd to claim its not a proposition of "socialism" when it is a proposition of 90% of the forms of socialism that have been advocated for.