Columbus a Spy for Portugal?

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by longknife, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. longknife

    longknife New Member

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  2. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sounds like another conspiracy theorist.
     
  3. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Conspiracy theorists are mired down in attention seeking and supported only by a small group of crackpots in "in the know".

    Conspiracy theories make the impotent feel important.
     
  4. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    There is a group that claims to have found the Santa Maria in the ocean bed and their findings seem to support what this guy wrote about.
     
  5. Wizard From Oz

    Wizard From Oz Banned at Members Request

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    Those guys used Columbus' diary to find the ship the guy disputes could even be there
     
  6. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    Rubish...Colombus was as a Portuguese Spy like Churchill a North Korean Spy...:roll: Ni a minimum historical data based that nonsense...We do not know much about his ife because the own Colombus made ​​sure that nobody didn´t know much about him...
    He was born around 1450 but we don´t know where...a plausible hypothesis is that he was born in Genoa, from Spanish Jews but It is a hypothesis... I think he was a spaniard, probably from Majorca or Catalonia, an old Privateer fought against Catholic Kings...and therefore he always wanted to hide his origin.
     
  7. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    Columbus and his brothers repeatedly declared foreigners, but never said where they came from.. and the word foreigner was very different meaning in XV century than nowadays...To be foreigner in Castille in 1480 comprised a frenchman, an aragonese, a portuguese... etc etc. So Columbus could be spaniard and being foreigner in Castille.Columbus practiced calculated ambiguity about its origin, birth etc.Columbus never used the usual formula at that time to say "I am a foreigner from Venice/Genoa/Rome/Firenze etc etc".. like the italians lived in Spain.
    Why in the many opportunities he had in Spain to say where came from, for example, in the many judgments, lawsuits, notaries, wills etc Columbus has never said where´s he from?

    That dark origin Columbus wanted...It has caused many places, basically Portugal, Spain and Italy, are dispute the birth.

    Regards
     
  8. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    Maybe he was from Genoa, or maybe not... One is for sure, the language Colombus wrote It was the Spanish one.. He never wrote a word in Italian or in Portuguese, not even if he was writing to their brothers or to the Italian bankers, he always used the Spanish... Why? Of course, It doesn´t means that he was necessarily Spanish, but the Spanish was the one language (or the first) he learned to write and therefore the only one who could express themselves without doubt.. More strange thing is that Columbus never uses words, phrases or senteces constructions from the Italian ..not even one time!

    documents in his own hand show that Columbus wrote almost exclusively in Spanish, and that he used Spanish, with Portuguese or Catalan phonetics, even when writing personal notes to himself, to his brother, Italian friends, and to the Bank of Genoa. His two brothers also supposed woolweavers from Genoa never wrote Italian either but Spanish.
     
  9. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    When Columbus wrote in Latin, only a few phrases in fact only marginal notes. Columbus merely repeats words and phrases from the original text, He was not fluent in Latin and also makes frequent mistakes that are Hispanisms (De Lollis). In other words, He didn´t speak a Latin learned in Genoa or in Italy but a Latin from someone who has learned the Latin in Spanish Language.
    Columbus spoke Spanish and wrote in Spanish but with words (and sounds) from the portuguese and catalan he handed to the text down...By other hand, his Spanish wasn´t perfect.. he always spoke with foreign accent..."ageno a su lengua" (Testimony of Garcia Hernandez from Palos, a doctor had contact with Columbus between 1491-1492)...So... the origin of Columbus is not clear... I think or he was spaniard (but not from Castille, maybe from Catalonia or from Majorca) or he was born in Genoa from a Spanish family (probably Spanish Jews), but he wasn´t Italian, nor culture nor language ...
     
  10. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    It is assumed that Columbus lived in Portugal for 9 years (1476-1485) ... and I say supposed, because in Portugal, he was married, had a family there and he sailed from/to there .. However ... There is not a single trace about his presence in Portugal!!!!

    All, 100% of what we know about Columbus in Portugal is because he wrote it, because It was written by later chroniclers or by a few documents found in Spanish archives, as the letter of Joao II of Portugal to Columbus ... written in Spanish in 1488 and in which he called "Nuestro especial amigo" (Our special friend) ...Not even we can demostrate the presence of Columbus in Portugal for 9 years!!!!
     
  11. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    It is interesting how "history" has so many holes in it.

    I am researching and writing about a individual, Fernando Rivera, who played a huge role in Mexican/Californian history. Yet, there is almost nothing written about him from age 9 to 18 when he enlisted under the Jesuits in Old California. How did he get there? What training did he have as a soldier? How did he become so educated and literate?

    The questions are endless and leave holes that seem to remain empty.
     
  12. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    You are right, It is like you say: many historic holes...

    Fernando Rivera is aninteresting and dark figure. I´ve found nothing about him in the period 1730-1740... Maybe in any parish will be found something about him between 9 and 18 years old. He was a governor of California and also commanded a presidio. and I think he was killed in action.

    I don´t know..

    I imagine he had the average training of a Spanish soldier in America in XVIII Century

    Catholic church, probably Company of Jesus. (The Jesuit has been very important in history of America... most of people was educated by Jesuits.. the Catholic Church in Spanish Dominion was like a kind of "Social Security", "Public Education" and "health care" at the same moment...
     
  13. longknife

    longknife New Member

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    I got a fantastic amount of information about Don Fernando from Antigua California, a most interesting tome about Jesuit California.

    Yes, Captain Rivera died in battle against Indians near present day Yuma, Arizona while escorting settlers, soldiers, and livestock to help found and expand Los Angeles. To make matters worse, the Spanish government refused to pay his widow and children their due and they lived in poverty, entirely dependent upon his elder brother.
     
  14. martin76

    martin76 New Member

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    I´m afraid the Spanish government never paid much to widow and children... In fact, I think any European government paid to widows and children...
    about California before 1848 I know few books: Relación del Viaje que hizo el general Sebastian Vizcaino ...al descubrimiento de la costa del Mar del Sur is about the exploration of california coast by Sebastian Vizcaino from May 6, 1602 to March 21, 1603. He explored the Californian Coast from Acapulco to Mendocino Cape.
    Viajes Misionales por la Pimería Alta (the Eusebio Francisco Kino´s travel to California to stablish missions in 1686.. in that dated, Kino wanted to unite Spanish dominios from California to Pimería and Arizona. "Viajes Misionales por la Alta California" written by Fray Francisco Palou about Fray Junipero Serra
     

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