Discussion of the law concerning Trump indictments in Florida

Trump has been indicted on multiple violations of 18 USC 793(e), "Willful retention of National Security Documents"

This is an open and shut case.

He had the documents.
He was not authorized to have the documents
He refused to return the documents.

That's it. All three aspects of this are beyond debate.

BUT if someone wants to try and explain why they think that these charges are not valid or somehow Trump has a viable defense I am willing to discuss it with these caveats in place.

1. The discussion is about TRUMP. Mentioning Biden, Pence or anyone else is not part of the discussion.
2. That the discussion be limited to the law, and how the law applies.
3. That any questions be answered directly. No answering a question with another question.

I will engage anyone who thinks Trump is being railroaded on this. If you (or I) post something that violates these caveats then we are free to call them out and refuse further discussion until the violator acknowledges their violation.

 

We can start by establishing the exact wording of the statute that Trump has been indicted for violating

18 USC 793
(e)
Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;

1. I think we can all agree that it is irrefutable that Trump had the documents. He turned over some in January at the request of the National Archives. He turned over more in June as the result of a subpoena. And more were found as the result of a valid search warrant served at Mar-a-Lago in August
2. Trump was not authorized to have those documents. He stopped being President on Jan 20th at 12 pm. After that point he was no longer authorized to possess those documents.
3. He refused to return them. As point 1 explains He was asked, he was subpoenaed and finally a search warrant had to be issued (and even after all that it's not 100% sure he's returned them all).

 

This is an extremely simple case. Easy to prove and simple to understand. The Georgia case is much more complex. There are concerns, however, about the judge who has already tried to take Trump's side. But it's so simple not even SHE could derail it. She could try to delay the hell out of it, though....

 

What a shocker, not one Trump supporter on this whole forum is willing to discuss the law and the charges against Trump. In the infamous words of Iago from Disney's Aladdin, "Color me NOT surprised!"

 

Trump declassified the documents and

Judge Jackson set the precedent that Trump could keep what he wants...

 

Which means he gets 20 years, instead of 80. You can now go out and celebrate! Maybe he can run again in 2044

 

Please read the post where I posted the exact wording of 793(e). Classification is not part of it.

The case you are referring to (Judicial Watch vs. NARA) does NOT say that Trump can keep what he wants. In fact it says the exact opposite.

 

STILL no takers?

 

Trump put the US at risk by holding onto those documents. I offer no defense.

However, and I know howabouts have no effect on this case whatsoever, but how about Hillary and Biden. They also clearly broke the law handling classified information. Where is the outrage about them? The cases appear to be even stronger against them since they had no presidential authority over classified documents whatsoever.

 

1. Prove he didn't try to return them.

2. Prove that the FBI didn't plant evidence.

3. Prove he was authorized to have them.

Before you start crawfishin, these are the exact same things that a prosecutor will have to prove in court.

 

That leaves the classified docs case which hinges entirely Two questions did the folder Donald claimed held the plans for an attack on Iran actually contain such or not and did he let anyone one actually look at the plans inside? If the answer to either of those is no the case evaporates.

 

The violation of 793(e) is the WILLFULL retention of the documents.

And, as you said, "howabouts" or "whatabouts" have no effect on the case.

 

We know he didn't try to return them because he had a chance in January when he responded to a request that they be returned and he returned SOME of them (if he had returned all of them at this point we would not be here). He was then subpoenaed to turn them over where he turned over more (but not all). And finally a search warrant was issued where even MORE were found.

I don't have to prove that the FBI didn't plant evidence, it is up to your side to prove that they did.

He was NOT authorized to have them because being an EX president comes with no authority to hold such documents. He stopped being President on Jan 20, 2021 at 12 noon.

 

You seem to assume he knew for certain he had the documents. I assume they just started shoving everything in boxes without sorting through it. I guess we will find out at the trial who is closer to correct.

 

You're only repeating what the FBI has told you.

 

In order to engage anyone who thinks that he is being railroaded you necessarily must consider the other cases of people who have did the same thing with no consequences.
And just saying that they gave them back when requested does not absolve them from the unauthorized possession of them to begin with

You don't get to the frame the discussion like that and say that no one can discuss that.

 

Bottom line - this was an outcome of his own arrogance. He had so many many “off ramps” where if he had followed the law he would not have been in trouble

 

So your advice to Trump is to use the defense "Biden did the same". Yeah, you go with that, I'm sure that will work

Oh, and yes, the writer of an OP can frame the discussion

 

That's nothing more than an excuse not to charge the other people who did not even have presidential access to classified materials.

As I noted above.... Simply giving them back when they were asked for does not absolve the person for possessing them illegally to begin with.

But that's the standard talking point that we're being fed to excuse the lack of prosecution for others who did the same thing

 

Trump has not denied having them. Unfortunately for him, he seems to forget what lies he has told

 

You should see if they offer a discount for the straw because I'm sure it gets expensive.

I said no such thing. What I said is when you see other people doing the same thing and they are not being prosecuted then yes it does make the justice system seem extremely biased.

The same people who are 100% behind this lopsided and selective prosecution are also the same people that tell us that no one is above the law but we can see clearly demonstrated that some people evidently are.

 

Just going to do some shop lifting. I just saw some kids shop lift some sweets and the security guard just let them escape. I'm going to see if I could swipe a TV

 

A local farmer probably could give you a discount on a large bale of straw

 

No, I’m telling you what I know.

 

Do you believe Hilary and Biden accidently held onto their documents?