Does the cost of the war in Ukraine exceed the benefits?

I'm sorry, but I've not heard that Ukraine thinks it's facing a genocide.

This all seems nuts.

 

It is

 

The message is of an error, I'm not sure what it is called but it is
by stages of exaggeration until it is completely, nuts.

The US neocons wanted to move NATO into Ukraine, and the reason
is available in the public domain.

The Russian Federation insisted Ukraine would not be allowed to be
a NATO country or I guess a de facto NATO country as it became.

If the US had not done a regime change in Kyiv in Feb 2014, and
started shelling Donbass in Oct 2014 and Biden shipped large
quantities of 'aid' to Ukraine in mid 2021 reaching the front lines
in Feb 2022, and begun heavy bombardment of Donetsk on Feb
19th 2022 in particular, resulting in Russia keeping it's promise to
move forces in on Feb 24th after giving many warnings and attempting
to negotiate.

There would be no war in Ukraine.

But that would in a sense mean 'obeying Russia', rather than
obeying the US, and that is verboten.

 

What the US goal in Ukraine?
What's the strategy to achieve it?
What will it cost?
What are the risks?

 

And I am not so naive as to think that Putin is so stupid and suicidal that he imagines for one moment that he can launch a military assault on NATO with impunity!

Try to understand this about Putin if nothing else: he loves one thing above all else -- the RODINA! The Russian motherland! In his heart-of-hearts Putin may want to "park his tank next to the Eiffel tower", as you suggest -- but he knows that if he even attempted such a thing, everything west of the Ural Mountains in Russia would be utterly destroyed and its comparatively small population of ~140 million nearly exterminated.

Then, with Russia utterly devastated, China could (and surely would) move in on everything in Russia east of the Ural Mountains and expropriate it on the basis of securing Euro-Asian "stability" (or some such thing). Who would stop the Chinese from doing that? As long as the Chinese aren't fighting NATO, why would we interfere? Moreover, Russia would simply cease even to exist... do you seriously think that Putin or any of his klatch of powerful Russian oligarchs wants that?!

I suggest you study Putin before making rash assumptions, and here is an excellent, accurate place to begin:

Unfortunately, the book has become VERY expensive....

 

It would be nuts for Ukraine to expect anything else from Russia.


New report highlights evidence of escalating Russian ...
Atlantic Council
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org › blogs › ukrainealert › n...
Aug 10, 2023 — While the Genocide Convention forbids genocidal violence itself (“the commission of genocide”), it also prohibits four other related actions: ...
Russia Is Committing Cultural Genocide in Ukraine
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blo...ce-of-escalating-russian-genocide-in-ukraine/

Foreign Policy
https://foreignpolicy.com › 2024/04/23 › russia-ukraine...
Apr 23, 2024 — Genocide aims at the annihilation of the identity and existence of a specific group—in this case, Ukrainians. The crucial aspect of identifying ...
https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/04/23/russia-ukraine-cultural-genocide-looting-indoctrination-deporatation/

Russia Is Attempting Genocide in Ukraine
Foreign Policy
https://foreignpolicy.com › 2023/08/03 › russia-ukraine...
Aug 3, 2023 — ... Russian Federation has actively commissioned genocide in Ukraine. ... Russia continues to employ the strategy ... strategies used in past genocides.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/03/russia-ukraine-war-genocide-bucha-izium-icc-war-crimes/

Understanding Russia's Actions in Ukraine as the Crime of ...Oxford Academic
https://academic.oup.com › jicj › article
by D Azarov · 2023 · Cited by 18 — The first months of the full-fledged Russian war against Ukraine accommodated both phases of the cultural dimension of genocide. Ukrainian ...
https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article/21/2/233/7197410

Helsinki Commission Briefing on Russia's Genocide in ...
CSCE (.gov)
https://www.csce.gov › press-releases › helsinki-commiss...
Nov 14, 2022 — According to Snyder, Russia is unambiguously committing the five types of crimes outlined in the Genocide Convention. However, Russia's clear ...
https://www.csce.gov/press-releases/helsinki-commission-briefing-on-russias-genocide-in-ukraine/

Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian ...Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Allegations_of_genoci...
Genocide scholar Alexander Hinton stated on 13 April 2022 that Russian president Vladimir Putin's genocidal rhetoric would have to be linked to the war crimes ...
‎Background · ‎Legislative recognition · ‎Investigations and... · ‎Assessments
Russo-Ukrainian Patterns of Genocide in the Twentieth Century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleg...Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
USF Digital Commons
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu › cgi › viewcontent
PDF
by A Fox · Cited by 4 — These genocides included several political genocides that quelled Ukrainian nationalism and independence and kept it subjugated to Soviet Russia. Soviet ...
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1913&context=jss

 

I'm sorry but this is still nuts, and not even the topic of this thread.

 

It was a substantive response to your post.

"I'm sorry, but I've not heard that Ukraine thinks it's facing a genocide. This all seems nuts." You

Review the historical costs of a policy of appeasement with respect to aggressive wars of conquest and genocide.


Ukraine Aid Costs Pale In Comparison To The Price Of ...

Forbes
https://www.forbes.com › Money › Taxes
Dec 18, 2023 — U.S. aid to Ukraine equaled less than 1/30th of the federal budget deficit in 2023. Abandoning our democratic ally would be far more costly.

The west knows the cost of appeasement. We can't rule out ...

The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com › commentisfree › feb
Feb 22, 2022 — Putin may not be Hitler; Ukraine in 2022 isn't Czechoslovakia in 1938; and French president Emmanuel Macron, Olaf Scholz, the German chancellor, ...

Commentary The cost of appeasement

Security and Defence Quarterly
https://securityanddefence.pl › pdf-151154-85041
PDF
by LP Goodson · 2022 — The 1938 Munich Agreement (Akehurst, 1972) by which the Allies allowed Adolf. Hitler's Germany to take the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia ...
8 pages


The Price of Appeasement
Jstor
https://www.jstor.org › stable
by J Pettifer · 2000 · Cited by 2 — The downfall of the Milosevic regime in Belgrade was widely expected after the arrival of. NATO troops in Kosovo last June. Optimistic scenarios depicted an ...
Missing: cost ‎| Show results with: cost


The cost of appeasement: Zeroing out aid for Ukraine puts ...
New York Daily News
https://www.nydailynews.com › 2023/10/02 › the-cost-...
Oct 2, 2023 — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, center, walks with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Ky. AP. Ukrainian President Volodymyr ...

 

It was a substantial post, with lots of references, by organizations I have little respect for because they can't get a concept as simple as genocide correct. The Russia-Ukraine war may have many reasons but genocide isn't one of them.

It's probably the most misused word in our current discourse, so it's not a surprise that I'm not impressed by all of your links; I'm just wondering why you are.

 

This is exactly the Kremlin narrative and it's all lies.

In reality, the trouble in the Donbass were fomented by Russia manipulating a minority of separatists

 

NATO has explained all that:
The goal in Ukraine was to draw Russia into the conflict and 'bleed Russia white'.
That should discredit the Putin government and allow regime change in Russia.
Russia was expected then to be broken up into 18 or so Republics,
and NATO justified that as a defensive move to ensure Russia was never again
a threat to the West.
Cost: if Russia did respond to the US/NATO threat it was believed they would be
defeated within 45 days.

But everyone on this forum already knows everything so there is no point
in me writing anything.

 

Amazing the amount of suckers that still believe the MIC/NATO propaganda. Keep it in mind when you are barely scraping by in your retirement.

 

I searched the internet for a support for your claims, and could find none. If you have any and wish to share them, I would be happy to look them over.

 

Ukrainians know you are wrong. That is one reason why Putin's invasion of Ukraine has been such an epic strategic blunder.

Many Ukrainians see Putin's invasion as a continuation of ...

Atlantic Council
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org › blogs › ukrainealert
Nov 25, 2023 — Raphael Lemkin, who first coined the term “genocide,” saw Stalin's attempt to destroy the Ukrainian nation as “the classic example of Soviet ...
Missing: fear ‎| Show results with: fear


Poll: 86% of Ukrainians want to fight on despite Russian ...

Atlantic Council
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org › blogs › ukrainealert › u...
Oct 25, 2022 — The current offensive represents a dramatic escalation in Russia's invasion at a time when Moscow already stands accused of committing genocide ...
Missing: fear ‎| Show results with: fear

 

You must realize that googling for the terms "genocide" and "ukraine" and then posting those links adds absolutely nothing, right?

 

That's a welcome change from years ago when many people said the Internet was full of lies and garbage.
And certainly people are more inclined to believe the crap they see on TV, or in a newspaper.

But I'm very fond of the Internet. The problem is I thought the items I'd seen and heard on the Internet,
often as I'm going to sleep, I would be able to look up later so I didn't take screenshots,
but they don't seem to get indexed.

So I'm going to have to do it myself and waste a lot of time.

Anyway, here's a snippet from the news feed I got today in which David Cameron is encouraging
Ukraine to provoke Russia. This has been going on for a long time and originally got Russia into
Ukraine.

 

The West always wants to step up the war another notch believing that Russia will not follow.

But Russia has been able to do so matching step by step over the last few years.

 

Found it.

https://www.abc.net.au › news › 2024-05-04 › kremlin-calls-cameron-statement-on-uk-arms-for-ukraine-a-direct- › 103804812
Kremlin calls David Cameron's statement that Ukraine can use UK weapons ...
'The Kremlin called British Foreign Secretary David Cameron's statement that Ukraine could use British weapons against targets inside Russia if it wanted to a direct and dangerous escalation of ...'

And then of course France is saying that they could send troops into Ukraine.

It's certainly seemed to me that we're deliberately picked this fight, though I'm not clear why or who is driving it. Is it Obama? War profiteering?

We need control of our military, and that starts with House funding, and of course Speaker Johnson sold us out on that, and why, is also unclear.



Americans were not clamoring for more Ukraine aid, in fact we're 13 to 12 against it.

I'm open to hearing the case for it, but, it's never been made, and if they can't or won't make the case for it, why would I support it, especially given the fact that the spending isn't offset by cuts elsewhere.

Here's a question: NATO is a defensive alliance. France sending troops into the war to kill Russians is an act of war. If Russia responds by bombing France, can France activate Article 5 of the NATO Treaty?

 

NATO is a money laundering/military grift organization. It damn sure lost the "defensive" moniker when it destroyed Yugoslavia.

The question you asked is one of the many reasons why NATO should be disbanded. Ask yourself this, if France was told that this much referenced Article 5 would't be invoked, do you think Macron would be running his mouth or sending troops? Of course not. If France wants to start a world war, then they need their assed bombed by Russia, with Macron receiving the first. Activating the magic 'Article 5' doesn't mean the U.S. (or anyone else) has an automatic obligation to defend France (or whoever else). Further, France attacking Russia would be a violation of Article 1.

Article 5

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.”

Article 1

"The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

 

As I understand it, getting my history from the documentary film 'Ukraine on Fire' and
an understanding that the neocons are still living in their heyday of 1989, ecstasy from
victory over the USSR and proof the US now runs the world.

Take the stuff they get Biden to say, and in his lucid moments he seems even to believe
that we can fight wars on two fronts and defend our own country (could if we wanted?),
and not get in debt because we're America!

Those neocons need to be sent back to 1989 when they were happy!

 

I do think there is a level of delusion regarding the status of the US. 25 years ago the US was not just a superpower, but a hyperpower. But we've fallen a long way since then and that has not really caught up with most people.

 

The Military Industrial Congressional Complex (MIC) is the problem.

1. It controls the media and Congress and gets the US into the wars we originally broke
away from England to avoid. The Monroe Doctrine is still surviving so we have to go over to
the other side of the world to make war.

2. By making all these wars and threatening other countries we are 'making a rod for
our own back'.

 

If NATO countries move in troops, the command centers for those troops will be destroyed,
using tactical nuclear weapons.