What is the end point here? At the extreme it woud be the end of all nation states, with one EU "country", but I think we all agree that this is very very unlikely. So what do you understand to be the end point of "ever increasing integration"? Because if it does not end, then it would mean that the very unlikely event of one country "Europe" would happen. Please just let me know when the integration ends (in your opinion). As I've said many many times, I'm pro-EU but I do want a clear end point determined upfront. I think the EU shuld be honest to us in the regard and the only indication we have at present is never ending integration. Vlad, Jan, Paris, I'm looking to you guys here, as you are the most vocal on the subject.
Is the UK a nation state? ...with all races, cultures, ethnics that exist on this planet converging there? Is the UK a nation state or four nation states (England, Scotland, N. Ireland, Wales)? Nothing cataclysmic happened so far because of this union and you are very different cultures (you even imposed your English language on the Irish and the Welsh, something the EU would never do, would never impose one language over another - its size alone guarantees this because it houses too many languages and I think this will guarantee the equality of all of them except for English/French/German who will be dominant by their citizen's free choice. In the same way, Europe's intention is to become a larger similar version of the thing you have there, the UK. UK resembles a federal state by all means. You gotta ask yourself regarding sovereignty... Are you the sovereigns there or are minorities the sovereigns over you English? What kind of sovereign are you in your own country if you can not do anything about their EVER INCREASING numbers? Looking at the UK I would like to also address you a question: How would you define a nation state/who is who there? You didn't confirm whether you watched that video I posted for you yesterday. If you didn't then it's kind of annoying when ppl don't do their homework but ask for the next lesson. I hope you don't expect me to just talk and talk and talk like an idiot here. If you want to grasp what the end point is going to be like then I think that video is the best starting point. BUT, if that is too long for your patience note that I am giving you a much abbreviated version of your homework: Watch from 32:00 to 42:57. This is 11 minutes. I hope this time this isn't too much that I ask you to watch: [video=youtube;Ab3Hhk4I1mc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpag e&v=Ab3Hhk4I1mc[/video] Here you also have that part of the speech. Pages written by Mr. President Barroso from which he read the speech on 12 September are now public: The truth is nobody knows. The exact future is hard to predict.
A clear and determined end point fixed upfront? Great we'll just get all 500 million citizens of the EU to agree exactly to what point we should be advancing and then make it so no future generation can push forward if they wish to.
I haven't a feckin' clue. Its an evolving project what seems a step too far may not be in 10 years. Monetary integration may eventually be scrapped.
Leffe,... I haven't got any idea... The EU is an unique project, there was never anything like it in history... I don't agree with Ryanm34 though... Before the creation of the Federal Reserve system was put in place, American banks printed their own money. So, you basically had a "Bank of America currency", a "Citibank currency", etc... Anyways, all I want to say is that monetary policy excists for a reason... And I have no idea where the wind will take us, Leffe. But I guess it all depends on what we want for our respective socities: a strong union, which enables us to weigh on world affairs, and thus, the best way to secure and determine our own futures. In other words: do we want to be our own boss or not.
Then I would suggest that you stop being so assertive in your in pushing an agenda that you do not understand and do not control. Seriously, how can you possibly take sucg a hardline stance on something you don't have a clue on? All I'm asking is that we stop sleepwalking forward and treat this like any business would. Make a plan and execute it. Business does not work this way and with 450m stakeholders and an annual budget of 142 billion, I expect some clarity about what we expect to achive. This is not unreasonable.
The budget is spent on what is currently agreed upon your questions so far relate exclusively to the future of the project. Mostly the CAP and regional development and support policies.
My point still stands, business cannot and does not spend this sport of money without having a clear plan. If I set about my business in this manner my employers would be rightfully concerned. The employers of the EU are 450M EU citizens, we deserve clarity; it is our future after all. On this board there are a number of posters who are clearly frustrated and sometimes angry with people who simply ask questions or support the asking of questions. They should take a step back and listen.... I know "listening" isn't the EU way, it doesn't show any sign of wanting to listen, it seems to want to march forward, increasing it's scope and power (via integration) on an ongoing basis. I put it to you all that member states should have limits put in place to put end points to where the EU can go. The American's have their constitution, which places restrictions on what the Federal government can do. We do not. These protections are better put in place BEFORE they are breached, otherwise we risk a situtation as in the US, where the country is divided in extreme ways. And the American's assocciate far more with being "American", than we do as being "European"; very few of us would say we are Europeans first and <insert nationality> second. Individual destiny is clearly a human trait; the Irish, Welsh and Scots want independence from England and the Union. Wallon and Flanders simply cannot get along under the Federal Belgian umbrella. Norway separated from Sweden. There's a movement of independence in Spain. Yet we all somehow think that continued integration in Europe won't cause the very same problems down the road. I think it will. One size simply does not fit all. And human nature says the more you try to force human to this one size fits all, the more they will oppose it. A loser union, which allows member states more domestic freedom is more likely to survive long term than a stricter union. I'm not saying this for all issues (banking controls for example), but the EU must chose where it intefers in domestic business carefully. Currently it seems that it is not.
EU clearly is a union made by plutocrats for plutocrats , if citizens win it back i am sure that we can all agree to some basic values since our cultures are similar . A decentralised union where regions are the supreme authority inside their borders and the federal government has no way of forcing legislations is okay in my books . Norway separated from Denmark
You got it wrong, when EU/IMF/ECB officials came here specifically asked to cooperate with those who cooked the books They put Papademos in PM position (the guy who crashed our central bank) Today's minister of economics is one of the senior chefs ( book cooking ) Head of national statistics came directly from Brussels and inflated 2009 debt to look higher than Ireland's You think that countries are responsible for the organised scams union played on their backs , your tax money are now going "through Greece" to pay interest in Bundesbank , have fun with that !
Tax dodging is a national sport in Greece. Shifting the blame seems to be yours. Greece was basically a third world country before entering the EU.
Tax dodging is the national sport of France, even your ex-president is thinking to change nationality to avoid taxes . In that third world country a single wage could built an island house with a pool and you could find two well paid jobs on your way to office , not to mention that we did had razors and showers when you did not .
I think in the eyes of some, integration ends when France is the sole receiver of the entire CAP.... For others, there is a somewhat different opinion about France's share of that pie...
Nicolas Sarkozy Wants to Flee France Over Taxes, Fraud: Former Leader Would Embarrass His Country One of the "great EU visionaries" will not play by the rules if the rules won't suit him . Now try to convince anyone that the union is not run by the mafia.
Greece used to have great thinkers in the past, what a pity. How could tax dodging be the national sport of France, if you have to change your nationality to avoid paying taxes? Answer me that, Sherlock.
OK Leffe, I thought it was obvious enough. Seems I have to say it with the words that some hardly like. I think I've said it before though. The end of integration is one European country to use your words. A Europe of regions. It will happen in the next 8-9 years. I mean it will be relatively complete in the next 8-9 years. It will resemble more of a devolutioned form of federal country from the start. Some laws will remain very local and unchanged but others very strict and universal to all the federal state. Beyond that point I can not foresee anything regarding any eventual further integration that may occur in the long term. The actual decision by member states who want to do this might be confirmed as early as 2014 by administrations of different countries. This is because that's when the blueprint of the treaty for political union in Europe is due to be revealed. I think the next State of the Union Address (2013) will be the first to reveal for the first time some of the specifics of this treaty for political union. But you're not the only business that asks itself this question. You shouldn't worry that much though. The EU gives time for all to readapt in their own rhythm as long as it doesn't take forever like with the United Kingdom.
He is just one individual. Whatever he did good or bad he was not elected a second time. He's history on the European stage. What's your point with him?
So no more countries of: Belgium - gone France - gone NL - gone UK - gone Ireland - gone Greece - gone etc... I wonder what the pro-EU people think of this? Personally I don't believe it but it is useful to my point that your guys don't even agree on the end point. The reality is that you have no idea BECAUSE THE EU HAS NOT SAID!! No wonder the UK is stand offish with teh whole affair. As a matter of interest Vlad, where are you from? - - - Updated - - - By the year the 6 nations will have become the 4 nations: England Scotland Wales Europe
Why gone? Why you use such tough words? They won't be gone anymore than Scotland was when it united with you. And look at Scotland now... how strong and united is. Its identity no less intact. You will do the same if you don't like it. They don't agree because they never tried to, not with laser accuracy. Remember that a continent is not the Island of Seaheaven from the Truman Show that you come from. You should've known by know where I am from. I mentioned it in countless posts that are of British interest particularly. But if you'll try your guessing abilities a little bit and get any close I will tell you
