Evidence that the Holocaust DIDN'T happen?

Apparently there are some denialists that think they are being clever by following their playbook to the letter.

so far in this thread, there has been no presentation of anything remotely called evidence to support the denialist position
so far in this thread, all there has been is denial of actual evidence with no substantiated rebuttal
so far in this thread, when getting wiped out with actual evidence the standard complaint response has been proferred.


But then again, incompetence has been a hallmark of denialist "researchers" and "scientists" from day one.

 

Well, some of the better-known, published deniers have a certain canniness to them, in the sense that they know the canards and outright lies that had served them so well initially won't pass muster anymore. They've also come to the realisation that they have to be careful with the inuendoes and half-truths they dispense to create doubt, since pretty much all of them have been explained and debunked a number of times by people in a better position to know the circumstances they're discussing.

But all the old canards and horse(*)(*)(*)(*) remain on their websites for the thicker of their minions to spread on forums like this one. Everything old is new again on that level of denierdom. Such time-worn shibboleths as 'Jewish soap', 'Jewish lampshades', ballpoint pen notations in the Anne Frank journal and even the hoary old Auschwitz Plaques gambit are regularly and confidently regurgitated by these newbie True Believers, as if any one of them were sufficient to demolish the entire Holocaust narrative as it's understood by people who've been exposed to the actual history of the period. It's as if they're eager to abandon critical thinking altogether, simply because some more famous anti-Semite than themselves has stated, as fact, something that's in accord with their own pre-existing bigotries

 

Amazing that some idiots would try and say something did not happen when even those that did the deeds admit to it, not to mention the mountains of evidence.

 

no, its really isn't if you think about it.

when virulent hatred of others is in play, the haters will believe the most outrageous nonsense in order to justify their hate. They have a burning need to buttress their inferiority complexes by the artificial belief they are somehow superior to others by the mere accident of their birth and not the content of their character.

Holocaust deniers, white power pinheads, religious fanatics, racists - all cut from the same cheap cloth.

 

Lamentably, it won't cease. as long as willfully duped individuals continue to spout this rubbish. Legislating a state intolerance of such views isn't any kind of answer at all. It's the responsibility of those of us who know better to take them on, one at a time, and make them the objects of revulsion and ridicule they so richly deserve to be, since they make their raison d'être as plain as day. They can't help themselves, really.

 

Here's another series I just came across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACALhtqkAw&list=PLOKa3KUnt_R6hQSPh51vmjQ_BgDDWQzBz

I've only had time to watch part of it but it looks very promising.

 

'Promising', in what way? Promising that it can undermine, or expose as a 'hoax', everything that thousands of academics have demonstrated to be factual?

You did know that any moron can create a Youtube video, right?

How much less than a moron does one need to be to be confident that, in the act of regurgitating a self-made video, he's produced evidence of anything?

 

A lot of the pro-official version posters here don't seem to have a very good idea of what the revisionists' position is. Here's some stuff they should watch and read before they do any more posting.


This is an informativwe video but you have to have a YouTube account to view it.

"Debating the Holocaust"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACALhtqkAw

http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=10315.0

"An alternate look at WW1 & WW2 (p-1 of 4)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry37mKMh04U


More here...

http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?board=65.0
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?board=28.0


Stuff about WW2

If the links don't work, do YouTube searches on the titles.

Hitler's War - What the Historians Neglect to Mention
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+What+the+Historians+Neglect+to+Mention&sm=12

Hitler Saved Europe From Stalin
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hitler+Saved+Europe+From+Stalin&sm=12

Who Started World War II? by Viktor Suvorov
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Who+Started+World+War+II?+by+Viktor+Suvorov&sm=12

Churchill's War
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Churchill's+War&sm=12

Mark Weber speaks on Hitler's Place in History
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mark+Weber+speaks+on+Hitler's+Place+in+History&sm=12

Adolf Hitler: Explains His Reasons For Invading The Soviet Union
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...s+Reasons+For+Invading+The+Soviet+Union&sm=12

Watch the above video here without having to log in.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a0_1301486247

Adolf Hitler: Explains Reasons For Invading Poland
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Adolf+Hitler:+Explains+Reasons+For+Invading+Poland&sm=12

David Irving - The Faking of Adolf Hitler for History
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+The+Faking+of+Adolf+Hitler+for+History&sm=12

 

The Hitler love is strong in this thread.

 

I'd suggest that you're not very well acquainted with the deniers' position yourself, or you'd be able to discuss the topic using your own words and backing it up with verifiable evidence. Spamming the conversation repeatedly with long-since debunked denial Youtube clips is a hallmark of historical ignorance and a sure sign of intellectual laziness.

 

Zundel has some followers, all of them require drool buckets.

The man is a nazi, virulent jew hater, and proven (many times) liar.

Yep real promising.

Come back when you actually know something about real history, about the revisionist movement and the intellectual pond scum that inhabit it.

 

Video spamming nonsense,

You people have already been provided the Special Operational Reports of the Einsatzgrupen to the SS-Reichssicherheitshauptamt Reich Main Security Office (RSHA) detailing the targeting of Jews, the dates of the killings, where they were killed, and how many:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sitreptoc.html

You have been shown the authentication of those reports by SS-Sturmbannführer Kurt Lindow chief of subdepartment IV A 1 [of the RSHA] who received them.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/authenticity.html

You have been provided the Jager report produced by SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando 3 detailing the extermination of Lithuanian Jewry including nearly 40,000 children:

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocJager.htm

You have been shown the testimony of Morgen, Kremer, Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark, all high ranking Nazis, none charged with any crimes, who all came forward of their own volition to testify, and to this day have not recanted their testimony to their dying day,

You have been shown the Wannsee Transcripts outlining the Final Solution to the Jewish question.

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html

You have been shown the testimony of SS Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann the man who took the minutes of the conference who confirmed them as authentic during his trial under questioning from his defense attorney's Robert Servatius and Dieter Wechtenbruch:in the German.

http://www.ghwk.de/ghwk/engl/texts/eichmanns-testimony.pdf

[video=youtube;kPFcMy1oLIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPFcMy1oLIA[/video]

[video=youtube;m3TqRrAK4e0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3TqRrAK4e0[/video]

You have been shown Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler's Poznan Speech of October 4, 1943 proving that Final Solution was a euphemism for extermination and not deportation:

I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' [...] But of all those who talk this way, none had observed it, none had endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there or when 1,000 are lined up. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person - with exceptions due to human weaknesses - had made us tough. This is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. [...] We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmler-poznan/

And another on October 6, 1943:

I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. [...] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.

You have been shown the comparative World Almanac census statistics for the global Jewish population showing a drop of nearly 5.5 million between 1938 and 1949.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.cgi?people//f/freedman.benjamin/background-data

You have been shown the Nazi document showing that an 80,000 cremation capacity per month at Auschwitz was insufficient.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

You have been shown the details of the mass graves excavated at Belzec:

Grave 3 is 16 meters long by 15 meters wide by 5 meters deep (about 52 feet by 50 feet by 16 feet.)

Grave 10 is 24 meters long by 18 meters wide by 5 meters deep (about 78 feet by 59 feet by 16 feet.)

Grave 20 extends outside the current camp boundaries and so could not be completely measured. The part that could be measured is 26 meters long by 11 meters wide by 5 meters deep (85 feet by 36 feet by 16 feet).

More dishonestly, Mattogno fails to mention at all that Graves 1, 4, 13, 25, 27, 28 and 32 also contain unburned remains.

Therefore, out of 10 graves that held whole human remains, Mattogno only acknowledges 3 of them.

Grave 5 contains "pieces of burnt human bones so densely packed together that the drill could not penetrate further." The grave is 32 meters long by 10 meters wide by 4.50 meters deep (about 105 feet by 33 feet by 15 feet).

Grave 6 is 30 meters long by 10 meters wide by 4 meters deep (about 99 feet by 33 feet by 13 feet). It contains "carbonized wood and pieces of fragments of burnt human bones. At the east end of the grave, the ground is covered with gray sand containing a mixture of crushed pieces of burnt and unburned pieces of human bones."

Graves 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, and 33 all contain fragments of burnt human bones, human ashes and carbonized wood.

Grave 14 is the largest in the camp. It contains "burnt pieces of human bones and fragments of carbonized wood mixed with grey sandy soil to a depth of 5 meters." That is about 16 feet deep.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspo t.com/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec.html

You have been shown the unrepentant testimony of SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf head of Einsatzgruppen D outlining the rear actions of the Einsatzagruppen regarding the intentional murder of ethnic Jews in the East based on their blood including the women and children:


Q. What were these orders?

A. These orders had as their purpose to make it as easy as possible for the unfortunate victim and to prevent the brutality of the men from leading to inevitable excesses. Thus I first ordered that only so many victims should be brought to the place of execution as the execution commandos could handle. Any individual action by any individual man was forbidden. The Einsatzkommandos shot in a military manner only upon orders. It was strictly ordered to avoid any maltreatment, undressing was not permitted. The taking of any personal possessions was not permitted. Publicity was not permitted, and at the very moment when it was noted that a man had experienced joy in carrying out these executions, it was ordered that this man should never participate in any more executions. The men could not report voluntarily, they were ordered.
Q. Why did you not prevent the liquidations?

A. Even if I use the most severe standard in judging this, I had as little possibility as any of the codefendants here to prevent this order. There was only one thing, a senseless martyrdom through suicide, senseless because this would not have changed anything in the execution of this order, for this order was not an order of the SS, it was an order of the Supreme Commander in Chief and the Chief of State; it was not only carried out by Himmler or Heydrich. The army had to carry it out too, the High Command of the Army as well as the commanders in the east and southeast who were the superior commanders for the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos. If I could imagine a theoretical possibility, then there was only the refusal on the part of those persons who were in the uppermost hierarchy and could appeal to the Supreme Commander and Chief of State, because they had the only possibility of getting access to him. They were, after all, the highest bearers of responsibility in the theater of operations.

Q. Did you not try in Nikolaev to dissuade the Reich Leader SS from this order?

A. The situation in Nikolaev was especially depressing in a moral sense, because in agreement with the army, we had excluded a large number of Jews, the farmers, from the executions. When the Reich Leader SS was in Nikolaev on 4 or 5 October, I was reproached for this measure and he ordered that henceforth, even against the will of the army, the executions should take place as planned. When the Reich Leader SS arrived at my headquarters, I had assembled all available commanders of my Einsatzgruppe. The Reich Leader addressed these men and repeated the strict order to kill all those groups which I have designated. He added that he alone would carry the responsibility, as far as accounting to the Fuehrer was concerned. None of the men would bear any responsibility, but he demanded the execution of this order, even though he knew how harsh these measures were. Nevertheless, after supper, I spoke to the Reich Leader and I pointed out the inhuman burden which was being imposed on the men in killing all these civilians. I didn't even get an answer.

Q. Now, I cannot pronounce it correctly, the Karaims were another sect whom you encountered in the south of Russia, and this sect had no Jewish blood, but it did share the religious confessions of the Jews. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You submitted to Berlin the question whether the Karaims should be killed, and I understood you to say that the order you got from Berlin was you shall not kill them for they have nothing in common with the Jews except the confession?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?

A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern Jews, in the case of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign. These Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that they were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews who were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all of Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all costs to get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed showed that the charge of the prosecution that persons were persecuted for their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish religion, but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the Jewish race.

Q. I think, Witness, you answered exactly what I had antici-

*Sect which refused the Talmud and adopted the Old Testament as sole source of faith.
**Turkish Jews of mixed Semitic and Tartaric blood.

Page 275

pated in the last sentence, "They did not belong to the JewishRace," is that right?

A. Yes, That is right.

Q. They were found in Russia?

A. Yes.

Q. But they participated in the Jewish confession in Russia?

A. The Karaims had the Jewish faith, yes.

Q. But your race authorities in Berlin could find no trace of Jewish blood in them?

A. Yes.

Q. So they came absolutely under the Fuehrer Decree or the Streckenbach Order to kill all Jews?

A. Yes.

Q. Because of blood?

A. Because they were of Jewish origin. For you must understand the Nazi ideology, as you call it. It was the opinion of the Fuehrer that in Russia and in bolshevism, the representatives of this blood showed themselves especially suitable for this idea, therefore, the carriers of this blood became especially suitable representatives of the bolshevism. That is not on account of their faith, or their religion, but because of their human make-up and character.

Q. And because of their blood, right?

A. I cannot express it any more definitely than I stated, from their nature and their characteristics. Their blood, of course, has something to do with it, according to National Socialist ideology.

Q. Let's see, if I can understand it; we've got a lot of time, I hope. What was the distinction except blood?

A. Between whom?

B. Between the Karaims and the Krimchaks?

A. The difference of the blood, yes.

Q. Only the difference in blood, is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. So the criterion and the test which you applied in your slaughter was blood?

A. The criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not been doubted during the entire trial, that in this
Fuehrer Order the Jews were designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who were to be killed.

Q. Tell us how orders that you operated under in 1941 in Russia differed from the order which controlled killing of Jews in Poland in 1939 ?

A. In Poland individual actions had been ordered, while in Russia, during the entire time of the commitment, the killing of all Jews had been ordered. Special actions in Poland had been ordered, whose contents I do not know in detail.

COL. AMEN: Were all victims, including the men, women, and children executed in the same manner?

OHLENDORF: Until the spring of 1942, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children were to be killed only in gas vans.

COL. AMEN: How had women and children been killed previously?

OHLENDORF: In the same was as the men - by shooting.

COL. POKROVSKY: You said that mostly women and children were executed in these vans. For what reason?

OHLENDORF: That was a special order from Himmler to the effect that women and children were not to be exposed to the mental strain of the executions; and thus the men of the kommandos, mostly married men, should not be compelled to aim at women and children.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): In your testimony you said that the Einsatz group had the object of annihilating the Jews and the commissars, is that correct?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): And in what category did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred?

OHLENDORF: The order was that the Jewish population should be totally exterminated.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Including the children?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Were all the Jewish children murdered?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Einsatz2c.htm
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Ohlentestimony.html

You have been shown the report from SS Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler to Fuhrer Adolf Hitler entitled "Report to the Führer on Combating Partisans", stating that 363,211 Jews had been killed by Einsatzgruppen in August–November 1942.



You have been shown the Höfle Telegrams sent by SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfle on January 11, 1943 to SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann in Berlin and SS Obersturmbannführer Franz Heim in Cracow detailing the number of deaths of Jews in the concentration camps.



You have been shown the Korherr Report written by chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS, Dr Richard Korherr outlining the population drop of European Jewry (4 million not including substantial portions of Eastern European Jewry and Jews within occupied Soviet Russia) from 1937 to December 1942.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.o rg/holoprelude/korherr.html

And now you have been shown the searchable database of over 4.2 million names and back stories of Jewish victims of the Shoah compiled by Yad Vashem.

http://db.yadvashem.org/names/search.html?language=en

Respond to the unequivocal evidence or kindly stop posting nonsense.

 

Regardless of what argument is used for why it didn't happen - the conclusion just boils down to "there's a big conspiracy in the media, the history books, etc" to cover up the evidence - and since you can't prove there's not a conspiracy, then this makes the argument valid according to them.

That's why it's pointless to argue with conspiracy nuts, because they'll end every discussion with just using "a big liberal/Jewish/Marxist/NWO/whatever conspiracy" as the cop out that there's no verifiable evidence. There's no point in debating people who consider a Youtube video or a Stormfront thread as better evidence than pretty much all modern history.

 

I think this says it all:

With Germany's loss in World War 2 incompatible with the notion of the Aryan superman, Zündel wrote books claiming that Hitler was alive in Neu-Schwabenland, a secret Nazi base at the entrance to the Hollow Earth in Antarctica, and directing the wave of UFOs that the credulous had been "seeing" for decades. These were invented during the war but saved back for this covert phase in which Hitler lets the Jews think they'd won. In the 70s he offered people $9,999 seats aboard his swastika-emblazoned blimp, which he intended to fly to Neu-Schwabenland.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ernst_Zündel

 

Yes, it was also addressed. Yet you continue to spam the thread with your copy paste.

 

What was the rail gauge at Bialystok?

Can we see a copy of Himmler's report?

 

If someone makes a statement of claim, like 'the Holocaust is a hoax/Jewish conspiracy', the onus is on them to provide evidence for this contention-- evidence that takes all other established evidence to the contrary into account. It's not the responsibility of their opponent to prove the negative.

All those on the side of established history need to do is present superior evidence. In the case for the verity of the generally agreed upon Holocaust narrative, this is a fairly simple matter since evidence for its having occurred abounds. Eventually, they give up and move on to greener pastures-- either discussion venues peopled by less savvy individuals, or echo-chambers packed with their fellow anti-Semites, where contrary input is strictly controlled by staff.

The point of the exercise, from a historical point of view is to demonstrate the paucity of their argument publicly and question the motivation behind their beliefs.

 

No of course not. Accusations must be supported with evidence. You can turn it into 'proving a negative' either way: not a hoax or didn't happen. There is no good evidence because it didn't happen. Pro-Semites are then reduced to personal waffle and cheerleading, a la the above.

 

See: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Treblinka.html

I'm curious as to what you're attempting to prove here. If the inmates of the Bialystok ghetto were not transferred to Treblinka to be murdered, where were they taken after having been transported west to that camp? Records of their transport all end there. If the plan was to move them into Soviet-held territory, the Nazis were moving them away from it.

See: http://books.google.ca/books?id=M9U...&q=himmler report "December 31, 1942"&f=false

... "In April 1943, Himmler responded to a request for a report on the status of the Final Solution. He had statistics compiled by a professional statistician, the Chief Inspector of the Statistical Bureau of the SS Dr. Richard Korherr, for such a report-- 'The Final Solution for the Jewish Question in Europe.' This lengthy report concluded that something in excess of 4 million Jews had been lost as of December 31, 1942. Himmler sent the report to Bormann, who returned it with instructions to remove the words 'liquidation' and 'special treatment' form it and shorten it. Himmler had the word for the special treatment of the Jews changed to 'shifted through.' THe six-page revised report was resubmitted to Bormann in June 1943, but it was never read by Hitler because 'the head of the Party Chancellery felt that at this point the Führer did not wish to receive the report'. Most of Hitler's attention at this stage was on the conduct of the war, which was deteriorating rapidly. Nevertheless, it is possible that Bormann gave Hitler a verbal report. There is no confirmable report that he did so." -- Stephen Atkins Holocaust Denial as an International Movement pg. 51

A facsimile edition of the
Korherr Report is available online.

 

You just go on believing that if it gives you a measure of comfort or rectitude. Those of us with a leaning towards academic history, rather than fanciful pseudo-history, will continue to rub your noses in your ahistorical Blind Faith and obvious bigotry.

Nobody on the historical side of the ideological divide is 'cheerleading'. The deliberate, industrial-style murder of millions of innocent civilians isn't something normal people cheer about.

 

Maybe they were sent to the Ukraine. Maybe there were work camps that needed workers at that time. The report looks pretty fake, where does it say all Bialystok Jews were killed? Maybe they were part of the 300,000 odd killed.

- - - Updated - - -

I am not saying you are cheering the alleged 'holocaust' obviously. You are cheering yourself. 'I'm the historical one'. I beg to differ. Stop cheerleading and stick to the facts.

 

And maybe there were abducted by UFOs.

Like ALL denialists, you consistently FAIL to provide any evidence to back up these ridiculous assertions.

Your tactics of debate EXACTLY follow the denialist playbook.

Have you ever considered that when you resort to sources like Samizdat and waronyou and the other cesspits of jew hatred, nazi kissarses, liars, and intellectual midgets it might provide others with a clear idea of both your motivations and perspective?

 

I was born less than 30 minutes drive from Dachau and have visted the site while stationed in Germany while in the US Army, good grief even the German People and Government admit to the crimes commited. If you want to deny it for what ever reasons that is your issue, it does not change the facts no matter how much you wished they would.

 

Well obviously. They get put in prison if they don't.

 

Do you really not see how absurd your position is? 'Some Jews were sent somewhere on a train...therefore they were gassed.' The Germans had work camps all over the East with varying worker requirements. Probably they went there.

Please refrain from personal abuse or it will be removed.