F-22 (Raptor) attacked a Russian attack aircrafts Su-25

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by st256, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    So far as I can gather your post is largely a political rant but which also includes misrepresentations of my stated views - including implied associations and statements that I have never once iterated. I also note that you have not bothered to even read the evidentiary links I provided.

    In conclusion, find someone else to bombard with your bombast. I'm not interested.
     
  2. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True ... I'm not arguing about the 'Wall Street Bankers were behind the Bolsheviks and the Nazis' thesis. That's worthy of an argument, but it's not the one I'm making.

    I'm just making a single point: it was a very good thing that the Nazis and Japanese militarists were crushed, and whatever the motivations of those who did the crushing, however much those who did the crushing were supportive of the Nazis beforehand, however hypocritical they were, whatever war crimes they committed while doing the crushing (and afterwards).

    All of human history -- that slow march forward out of chimpanzee-status -- is a choice of lesser evils.

    The bottom line: Thank God that we had Churchill and Roosevelt in charge, and not appeasers and isolationists.

    Once we can agree on that, then there is plenty of room to discuss, for example, the disgraceful, murderous treatment of Germans after the war, the mass rape committed by American troops on Okinawa, the atom-bombing of Japanese cities, the plans of the American elite for the 'American Century' replacing the British ... lots of things that run counter to the patriotic history I was taught in school, which was largely propaganda, like all history taught in every school in the world.
     
  3. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    But you seem to be prepared to completely ignore the fact that it was the West (America, France and GB) who de facto helped to promote Hitler and his vile ideology in the first place (a great many VIP's in the West outright admired him - members of the British royal family swooned over him, in fact). These people also provided him with the funds to translate his ideology into a militarily potent reality. And it was America, in particular, that knowingly manipulated and virtually forced Japan to go to war to acquire the resources it desperately needed.

    In other words, if you hand someone who is unstable - who you know for certain is a deranged murderer - a loaded assault rifle and a truck-load of ammunition, and step back and watch him go on a death spree, you share more than equal responsibility for the murders that have taken place, as you are the guiding mind of that atrocity.

    That you - the elite classes - then order your own citizens to go to war and watch them die in the hundreds of thousands in a world wide conflagration that resulted in the slaughter of some 40-50 million souls --- in order to put both the madman and your chosen enemy Emperor down, screams cynicism in the extreme.

    In fact, it suggests that it is you who are the deranged psychopathic murderer.

    The problem with those who later became the "Allies" was that they had earlier chosen to back and fund Hitler so he would attack the Soviet Union. Apparently he was not quite so amenable to being manipulated and used, and chose to invade Western Europe first - before being subtly guided (by we British) into undertaking Gottadamerung against Stalin.

    The subject of greater and lesser evil I'm happy to discuss, but first we must each look in the mirror of historical fact and conclude which of the protagonists - the guiding minds - was the greatest evil and which is the lesser?

    A statement which suggests or implies that you are only prepared to discuss those "awful" things provided that we steer clear of the far darker aspects and guilty intrigues of WWII? Those limitations might suit your honeyed perspective but I prefer facing up to the awful, stinking reality.

    "What is history but a fable agreed upon"
    Napoleon Bonaparte
     
  4. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm quite willing to discuss the subjects you want to discuss -- although I'll need to read the materials you refer to first.
    However, let's stipulate, as the lawyers say, that everything you believe is true.
    Is it not still the case that it's a good thing that the Nazis were utterly defeated?
     
  5. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Of course it was. Hitler and his henchmen were a vile abomination. But that isn't the argument really, as we all knew this already.

    What is far less known is the duplicity of the west to elevate a beast and steer him to start a war with another nation (Bolshevik Russia) which the West (US and UK) had previously financed and later ensured the Reds won the Russian Revolution by withholding vital war materials from the Battle of Moscow.

    So: "we" created our enemy (Bolshevism) and then created the beast (Hitler) to go to war against the Bolsheviks. But Hitler turned on the hand that fed him and so "we" declared war on him. And here I can add a great deal more about what really happened concerning the British elite instinct for betrayal and backstabbing surrounding the flight of Rudolf Hess and the plan to reach peace with Hitler , which I learned from a former (now deceased) member of Britain's security service.

    The bottom line is that dividing and conquering enemies - that might possibly align with each other - is how Great Britain ruled the world.
     
  6. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Arabs, supposedly, have a saying:
    "Why is it better to be the enemy of the British, than to be their friend?
    Because, if you are their enemy, they will try to buy you.
    But if you are their friend, they will try to sell you."

    But ... I don't think 'Perfidious Albion' is any more perfidious than any other ruling elite throughout history,
    and I think all democrats (small 'd' here) should be grateful to the British for being the home of the concepts
    of liberty, i.e., a way of ruling without overt oppression of the non-elite.

    Why this was so -- why these ideas evolved first of all and to the greatest degree of elaboration in Great
    Britain, is an interesting question. I think Macaulay put it down to the English Channel -- the English rulers
    didn't need a huge standing army to defend themselves from other rulers, and thus had to deal with their
    subordinates in a more consensus-building way than rulers who had such a force at their daily command.

    But although I'm sure some materialist explanation for this is true, I don't know enough about British history
    to endorse this one and defend it.

    I'm just glad that the British and American elites were not unanimous in their attitude to Hitler -- that history
    gave us Churchill and Roosevelt, just as it gave us Abraham Lincoln.

    Sadly she doesn't seem to be in a giving mood any more.
     
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