true, the fall of China to the communists put the vulcan mind F*** on Truman and he couldn't understand the difference between an anti colonial nationalist vs a communist
I spent decades in the Army. I never lost my freedom in any way. The Army helped me enjoy and appreciate my freedom. We got involved with Vietnam due to SEATO... the SouthEast Asia Treaty Organization. We were honoring our commitment to an ally. By the way, Ho Chi Minh was the communist enemy.. head of NORTH VIET NAM. Our ally was SOUTH VIET NAM.
I was in the public at that time and they believed what they were doing was right with the same conviction as so much of the US public believes it is right at present to send 300 million dollars in offensive weapons to Western Ukraine/Kyiv, every day. And right now they know these weapons are used to kill civilians in Eastern Ukraine and Russians. Or at the very least they know the weapons are to kill.
The present position is inexcusable. There was a stated objective in Vietnam to prevent the spread of Communism to the rest of SE Asia, and Thailand was under threat. I'm not sure anyone can explain why we are indirectly in Ukraine.
Absolutely. I don't see anything in Ukraine that is essential to US National security. Heck, for decades it was part of the Soviet Union and our ENEMY. What makes it so important now that we spend billions protecting Ukraine's border while we leave our own wide open?
The only explanation for being in Ukraine given by the general public was a rather disjointed one that goes like this: President Putin is 5ft 7in and is therefore the same height as Napoleon of 5ft 6in. And therefore Putin wants with an army of 180,000 soldiers to conquer Ukraine which has 630,000 NATO trained and equipped soldiers, and then to go on and take all of Europe. Zelensky is also 5ft 7in but he is not a Napoleon
We are responsible for supplying the training, the weapons and the payrolls for the UAF soldiers and despite being 'at arms length' we have made the deliberate choice to kill civilians in Donetsk and other areas in Eastern Ukraine, and then after Russia moved in forces to protect the civilians, then attacking the Russian forces as well.
We aren't killing anyone. Ukranians are. I guess one of the arguments is Russian soldiers killed by Ukrainian citizens using US supplied weapons will mean less Russian soldiers we might have to deal with at a later time
I too have spent decades in the Army, and never lost my freedom in any way, but that does not excuse the way we betrayed the people of Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh did not have to be an enemy. When our commitment to a treaty meant agreeing to support the exploitation of Vietnam, we should have told France to back off, like Roosevelt did. Hiding behind a treaty does not excuse our nations’s criminal actions. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing but the highest respect for the men who fought there. But the political reasons for being there were absolutely criminal, and brought nothing but further unnecessary death and destruction to a nation that was already devastated by foreign oppression by the Japanese and the French.
There was no reason for Russia to invade a foreign country (Ukraine) because the ethnic Russian population was never in any danger. Members here need to learn history. The Russians murdered about 6,000,000 Ukrainians using a terroristic famine that was created by Stalin and enforced by Russians. Stalin moved Russians into the areas of Ukraine where the Russians had murdered millions of Ukrainians. Therefore the majority of the Russians living in Ukraine are in reality invaders. Putin created the great lie of Russians being in danger and used it as another reason to invade a foreign country- Ukraine. Read what Putin wrote a few years ago about his wish to restore the Russian imperial lands. Putin also whines about the breakup of the USSR. Putin wants to be a czar and he is committing genocide, murder , and terrorism to get his dream of czarhood.
Yes, but after a long fight and killing over 3 million Vietnamese, the Vietnamese government signed a contract so ESSO could get the oil in the shallow water off the S coast of Vietnam. Back then as well as the weapons makers, the petroleum industry was a big driver of US foreign policy. Think about WW2, the US got the gold and the oil.
I don't see industry and petroleum as a good justification for betraying our friends, and promote the exploitation of a people who had known nothing but suffering at the hands of foreigners for generations. Vietnam, including Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh, LOVED America by the end of WW2. If we had followed Roosevelt's ideas, we could have had a strong ally that would likely have been very friendly to US interests. Instead, we gave in to French demands. supporting their continual exploitation of Vietnam as their colony. this drove Vietnam further into the arms of communists. The Vietnames wanted FREEDOM from foreign oppression. They were willing to fight to the last man to win that dream. You would think that is something we could sympathize with here, given our own history. Instead, we sacrificed millions of Vietnamese lives, tens of thousands of American lives, hundreds of billions of dollars... for what? We lost the country to communism because we underestimated how patriotic and desiring of freedom the Vietnamese were. If Communists were the ones occupying their country, and the west was willing to help them, I'm sure they would have just as willingly become a westernized capitalist nation. Again, don't take my criticism as looking down on the men that served there. They have my deepest respect for their service in such a difficult conflict, and the blame is not theirs.
This is an interesting article about our OSS Deer teams in Vietnam at the end of WW2, USA-Vietnamese relations after WW2, and how things went to crap there. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/oss-vietnam-1945-dixee-bartholomew-feis
Ho Chi Minh caused the war by supporting the Viet Cong. When he couldn't conquer the South, a free and independent nation, he used regular North Vietnamese Soldiers to invade the South, Ho Chi Minh invaded the south, the south never invaded Ho Chi Minh's North. Ho Chi Minh was an invader, We were legally required by SEATO to help. I'm sorry you think treaties are meaningless.
The country was supposed to have elections for a unified country in 1956, as set out in the Geneva Accords. Ngo Dinh Diem refused to allow them, as Ho Chi Minh was very popular in South Vietnam, and of course the US supported that decision. He claimed that since he had not signed the agreement, he was not bound to it, even though the State of Vietnam was still part of the French Union, which WAS bound by the accords. That is when the Viet Cong and NVA kicked things off. SEATO was a farce from the get-go. It was a way to keep colonial power and western corporate interests happy. It had nothing to do with doing the right thing for the people of Vietnam and freeing them from decades of foreign oppression. I don't see how you say SEATO needed to be honored when elections for a unified Vietnam were not. What it amounted to was the US knew Ho Chi Minh would win, and that terrified them. Fear does not justify what we did over there. We can't justify atrocities by hiding behind treaties that the people of the affected country were not even party to.
US interests included preventing the spread of Communism. Are you posting from China or Russia? I'm an American. AMERICA FIRST!
It was NOT in American interests to do what we did. Roosevelt had it right. Telling France to stuff it was the right move. You are right, America first, not French colonialism first. What we did in Vietnam SPREAD communism, it did nothing to combat it. It would have been FAR more in America's interests to keep Ho Chi Minh an ally. He was already very friendly with us after WW2. He would have almost certainly won the free election to unify Vietnam, and with Vietnam in a weakened post-WW2 state, American aid would have been welcomed with open arms. Vietnam would have a freely elected government, and we would have had a strong ally in the region. the path we chose was utterly foolish. Roosevelt knew it. Our OSS operatives knew it.
France was no enemy. Communism WAS. "The enemy of our enemy is our friend". Ho Chi Minh was a communist. Stalin was our friend in WWII, That didn't work out so well in the long run. America never did make any communist friends... FOR A REASON.
Yeah, an incredibly stupid and paranoid reason. The red scare and McCarthyism was an idiotic mindset that caused the US to create its own enemies where there were none. It was all paranoia and nonsense, and if cooler heads were listened to, a lot of bloodshed and wasted resources could have been avoided. There were PLENTY of voices calling the BS what it was. This is when the Military Industrial Complex began rearing its ugly head, creating reasons to start wars where there were none. Stupid decisions were made on baseless paranoid fear, and history has shown they were the WRONG decisions. We gained NOTHING from the war in Vietnam except a large monument in Washington DC, and we managed to create another hostile communist nation at the same time.
Your hatred of America is very evident. That having been said, let me add that "Monday morning quarterbacking is always negative". I lived through that period. It was all logical and justified. Both Houses of Congress approved and supported our actions. You seem to think you know more than Congress... I doubt it. It was an era when the head of the Soviet Union announced his intentions about the USA ("We will bury you") The danger was out in the open and hardly an "idiotic mindset". Your assumptions about the MIC also demonstrate your emotional rather than logical mindset. I spent decades working at the executive levels of Boeing, LockMart, and more. Allegations that the MIC "reared its ugly head , creating reasons to start wars" is pure propaganda... the propaganda of our enemies. It never changes, by the way. Hey, the folks that keep you and America safe know that folks like you are out there, undermining American freedoms and liberty. They'll keep you safe anyway.
Lol you are absolutely full of ****. Calling out bad moves that America made in its past is NOT hating America. I would think someone named AARguy would know that calling out the mistakes of the past is a healthy thing, so that we can learn from those mistakes. Of course hindsight is 20/20. That doesn't justify bad mistakes. We should look at our past decisions, Identify those mistakes, identify ways we could have made better decisions, and take those lessons learned to heart moving forward. Your screaming "AMERICA HATER!" because I call out bad decisions in the past is absurd. That is something I would expect from a college uber-liberal trying to silence a guest speaker, not from someone who I am guessing conducted AARs after training evolutions in the Army. I proudly served my country for 20 years as an infantryman, deployed 4 times to Iraq. I would never call someone an America hater for questioning things that we ****ed up in the past. I'll call out the mistakes we made in Iraq as well. Hell, I was the one there helping to make the mistakes. I am still incredibly proud of my service, and I like to think I did what good I could in my immediate area, and I am very proud of the other soldiers I served with and lead in combat. That doesn't mean I will not look back and identify the ways we could have made better decisions. And doing that sure as hell doesn't make me a hater of America.
I didn't scream anything. I rarely raise my voice at all. I just don't see your condemnation of America as very positive. I am all for looking at America's mistakes, of which there ae many. But I would view them with an eye on improvement, not a hostile, hateful exercise praising our communist enemies, blaming American "corporate interests" for starting wars, and calling American leadership "stupid and paranoid". I spent years listening to those exact words coming from the Kremlin and, more recently, from Tehran and North Korea. Those America haters used the same words you did. That being said, its interesting that you know about AAR's. I helped write the book on how to conduct them (TC 25-6) back in the 1980's when stationed at TRADOC headquarters. I conducted them at NTC as an O/C and around the world conducting MILES training. As a Company Commander in the 1970's, I actually had the privilege of sitting with BG S.L.A. Marshall, who started the whole concept of AAR's almost by accident at Makin Island in WWII. Where were you in Iraq? I spent my time there as a contractor, after leaving active duty. I spent a year training the NEW Iraqi Army at KMTB, Camp Caldwell,,, and a second year on staff with Fire and Emergency Services at Camp Liberty. We may not have a real argument here. I'm the first one to admit that America has made mistakes, although I believe the great and glorious things far outweigh the mistakes... that's why I focus on the good rather than the bad. My problem may only be that you focus on the bad which is ok, if not overdone. And the insultsa and descriptions... your words, are words of hate. Perhaps that over emotional tone does not express what you really mean.
I have No hate for America at all, or for any people. I love our people and what we stand for, even if I have criticisms on how we handled things at many points in our history. I apologize if I came across as sounding hateful, but it is not so. It is my desire for America to be the best it can be and remain a powerful and true force for goodness in the world. We have many dark points in our past, such as our experience with Vietnam, our treatment of native Americans, etc etc. I don’t hate the people who made those decisions, and empathize with what drove them to make those decisions with what they likely thought was the truth at that time. But I believe looking back with our 20/20 hindsight and seeing what was really going on, and being critical of the decisions that were made, can help us make better decisions in the future. Not that I am likely to ever be in a position to make such decisions. My first tour in Iraq was with Bco 1/502, 101st airborne. We were part of the initial invasion. While Thunder Run was happening, we were tasked with securing areas they bypassed on their rush for Baghdad, with Najaf being my battalion’s focus. We then continued to Baghdad for a short time, then to Karbala, and finally went north to Mosul where we spent the rest of our tour. My platoon fortified a train station hotel up there, and we mostly conducted presence patrols with occasional raids for the rest of the deployment. My second deployment was with Bco 3/67, 4 ID IN 2005. That tour was entirely in Baghdad at FOB Rustamiyah. The third deployment was back to Mosul with Aco 3/8, 1st CAV, around 2009. We spent part of the time at FOB Diamondback at the airbase, and part of the time pushed out into the desert south of the city. My final deployment was around 2011, at COB Adder, an airbase further south, again with 1st CAV. The base was shutting down as we left, handing everything over to the Iraqis. Again, I do not hate America, not even remotely. If I am critical, it is because I believe there is always room for improvement. Throughout my time in Iraq I saw the effects of many decisions that were made from above that were non-sensical, and that aggravated things big time for the people that we were supposed to be helping, which many times felt like betrayals. But, overall, I am proud of what I did there, and I like to think that I and the soldiers I served with did the best we could for the people of Iraq given the circumstances we were presented with. Personally, I have serious doubts that we should have ever invaded Iraq. At the very least, we should have left after Saddam was defeated. Staying and “rebuilding” caused more trouble than it fixed. Anyways, it is an interesting background you have. I have sat through countless AARs, pretty much after every single mission and training event I have ever been in, even if it was just a quick informal one. Sometimes I may have wanted to throttle the guy who came up with them (joke), because I was exhausted and wanted to get some shut eye before the next mission, but conducting the AAR when it was still fresh in everyone’s mind was probably the best practice.
