Gay Teen Suicide: A Range of Causes

That's where I'm coming from. The stuff she's putting down here, is just plain DANGEROUS and ultimately dehumanizing.

(And people 'wonder' why gay people fight so hard about things.)

 

Just stop obfuscating and distorting reality. YOUR conclusions do not support the consensus of REPUTABLE organizations.

No one should put up with the noise you're laying down in these pages.

 

Aw shucks...that's so sweet. You brought in reinforcements! You shouldn't have..lol..

Well in that case Wanderer, let me introduce you to some:

Epidemic suggests there's a big problem. I'm not really surprised you haven't met anyone self-identifying within the strict code of gay subculture as not wanting their homophilia. After all, if the shrinks won't even acknowledge or help you with your problem, your peers "in the fold" sure as heck aren't going to. There's a closet within the gay community all right and it's the one that these types of major-depressives are not ever allowed to leave..

And that can have a wearing effect on a major depression that leads to suicide.

I wonder how well-received a teen with unwanted homophilia would be in the ranks of gay surrounding him if he "came out" with is desire to leave that subculture and have sex with women instead? After all, there are signs of closeted heterosexuality within the gay ranks themselves, aren't there? For instance, why are lipstick lesbians attracted to mannish lesbians? And why are butch gay men attracted to "femme" gay men? Yep. There's a little closet-action going on in that unforgiving subculture. And if anyone even thinks of "Anne Heche-ing", they're going to be in for a bumpy ride..

 

There is a big problem, and your analysis of it is surely lacking.

 

How about the CDC's analysis of it then, since I'm merely quoting their findings and talking about them as they are for all to see? Or is it too uncomfortable to read and discuss on its merits?

 

I think that many gay people surely recognize there are mental issues AMONGST homosexual people. However, they also would agree that the specific reasons for that are myriad, and not the least of which being the inhumane TREATMENT many homosexual people are forced to ENDURE (even from childhood).

Be that all as it may possibly be in actuality, it seems that YOU are taking what the CDC says/reports and overreaching for specific conclusions and solutions. And as many do, with virtually ANY topics or facts... there is a form of intellectual extrapolation which leads to various OPINIONS. And your opinions differ greatly from those related to the general scientific consensus which many experts accept.

And as I've implied to you numerous times before, while I (and others) are perhaps willing or capable of regarding your 'view' in certain ways... there is no imperative to agree with your perceived outcome as it relates to the "facts" you might offer (whatever they may be). And it is actually understandable that YOUR view would differ from that of even the most reputable organizations on the planet concerning these things.

My personal view, based upon what I have experienced and learned from other sources... is that you are mostly wrong in what you are generally implying by what you know (or believe you do).

Or is it that you think/believe that NO ONE should disagree with you here? (And a clue to the actual answer, is contained within the results of the very POLL that you initiated at the beginning of this thread.)

 

If I'm guilty of "overreaching", then good. At least I'm erring on the part of keeping gay teens alive. I would think you would want to do the same. But hey, the world is full of all types of people so to each their own...

Meanwhile since you've gotten another page [and the quote from the CDC] out of the viewing eye, let's look at it again and see how "overreaching" I am.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The CDC did a study and found that being sexually molested as a child was a predictor of major depression in gay men and more importantly, that being majorly depressed as a gay man is a predictor of that man having been molested as a child. That really isn't open to interpretation. And then then went on to call major depression [and it's causal agents as stated ] as "an epidemic" among gay men.

So, they are saying that intrinsic to gay men, by and large, is their having been molested as a child.

I'm saying if that is the case as the CDC has clearly an inarguably stated and then was published in 2005 in Clinical Psychiatry News, then this "epidemic" means that in the gay male subculture at least, child molestation is intrinsic to it.

Just saying that has no real impact on understanding how the gay culture could affect the mainstream. All it says really is that of any group of gay men, you're going to find an "epidemic" of them having been molested as children. Taken apart, all that does is make you feel sad for them..

But then the Mayo Clinic [you know, that little backwater outfit] has something to tell us about victims of molestation. And this paints a darker edge on this "epidemic" culture trying to access school staff, parents & curriculum to teach kids "gay is OK".

There's the information. And you bet I'm going to err on the side of keeping kids safe from harm, self-inflicted or otherwise..

 

No, you really aren't; you're fueling the same old forms of misguided scrutiny and rejection that has led us to where we are in this society.

Now, that is certainly debatable, but that is what I get from what you say/conclude.

 

Don't you mean the CDC is "fueling the same old forms of misguided scrutiny and rejection that has led us to where we are in this society"?

They're the ones who said that major depression in gay males is an epidemic and that that epidemic stems from and is statistically tied to their having been molested as children.

So they're the ones who said molestation is intrinsic to the gay male culture, not me. Their professional choice of the word "epidemic" qualifies that conclusion.

Then the Mayo Clinic 2007 special report says that the cyclic nature of pedophilia [in gay males especially] is so emperically verified that it is synonymous with "common knowledge".

You are asking people to ignore the top health consultants in the US in order to forward the idea that "you can kill the weed [gay teen suicide] by cutting off its tops [bullying]." Sure, the tops are part of the weed, but the root is what will grow them back when you walk away smug and "satisfied you got the job done right".

I'm saying pull the weed out by its roots.

Your beef is not with what I'm reporting here. Your beef is with the Mayo Clinic and the CDC itself. Those are their conclusions, not mine..

So we have:

1. That molestation is intrinsic [epidemic] to gay male subculture

2. That molestation is cyclic and "passed" like a disease from one generation to the next.

3. That it occurs through emulation or social-learning/imprinting.

And then we have California's SB 48 that attempts to teach little kiddies in school that "gay is cool!" "you can be a hero too, just like these gay people!" [social-reward reinforcement...very powerful with kids in developmental stages].

 

From my previous post I would say that not only would we expect gay teen suicides not to stop, without proper idenfitcation [well, we have it don't we...I guess I mean acknowledgement of what our experts have already found..] of the root causes, they should be on the rise.

Molestation is more than a sexual incident BTW. It causes deep feelings of violation and broken trust. A molestor will "groom" a child and their parents, teaches and guardians to trust him implicity. This is why everyone is always shocked to find out who the molestor is. They aren't always the creepy guy in the van handing out candy. Instead they have often spent many years putting themselves in positions of trust around children so that no radar is alerted. The child learns to trust this violator too. And so the child is given the deep psychological wounds of distrust on the most abusive level: "you can't even trust the people who say they love you". Who else can you then trust? This twisted legacy, along with stark feelings of impotence and rage at a complete inability to stop the violating events, combined with a sexual stimulation as some children even "learn to enjoy" the sexual encounters.. All this leads to a bubbling cauldron of a twisted, squirming mind as that child reaches adulthood.

It's much more than sexual. And since we now know about it, if we refuse to stop it we are accessories to the crime.

 

And Johnny will always be on the side of those who seek to normalize gay sex, regardles of any detrimental effect it may have upon children.

 

Hey, it isn't the fact that people are "homosexual" that is the problem, it is the fact that society has YET to approach and handle homosexuality properly.

I'm on the side of what the most reputable mental health experts IN THE WORLD are saying about this. And those things they are saying (where the evidence is pointing), are not new; not at all.

Socially, I understand that there is STILL much ignorance and irrational animus surrounding "homosexuality", and many answers/solutions implied in this thread, illustrate that fact.

You mention some 'nebulous' "detrimental effect it [homosexuality] may have upon children", but there is virtually nothing scientifically reputable, which proves what you say. Yes, I know you can find some weirdly-biased 'evidence' offered by some anti-homosexual organization which CLAIMS homosexuality hurts children... but there is no proof that is so.

 

Well, I'll keep watching to see if ANYONE (who is reputable) PROVES that homosexuality in kids, is somehow inherently a dangerous thing. And it is CERTAIN that you have not presented such proof nor substantial evidence, that what you so strongly imply is the case (in reality).

 

Studies show a high correlation between suicide, teen or not, and being gay. Whether this is because of enduring prejudice or whether this is because studies show another high correlation between abuse and being gay and it's the past abuse driving that suicide rate, I don't know.

It's also possible that it's correlated with hormonal imbalance, chemical brain imbalance or other medical issues that might have some bearing on why some people are gay.

I agree that if anyone takes the deaths seriously, there is clearly a lot of room for investigation into why the rates of suicide for gays and gay teens is so much higher than average.

Every life has value.

 

To me, it is the suicide that matters most, not the sexual-orientation of the person. I've talked many straight people into mental counseling in my life... relationships are usually the biggest issue. I could imagine that for gays in American society, there are difficulties (family/romantic) which most heterosexuals wouldn't fathom of even consider.

If "gay" were about some hormonal imbalance, there would already be a way to SWITCH people from gay to straight and the other way around (most likely).

The way that gay people are treated IS a major part of the issue, but surely suicide warrants more investigation period.

Amen to that!

 

And if that suicide is caused by the person being molested, as the CDC has published a link between as "epidemic" among gay males, then we should investigate the first bullying episodes as causal and look to the ones in school later as secondary to the initial hurt.

Feeling unimpowered by the complete mental takeover that being molested is to a child is toxic and lifethreatening. The icing on the cake would be a sexual compulsion imprinted by those experiences that you "eventually came to like" due to their association with orgasm, the conditioned response in spite of what the higher brain sees as a violation of the highest degree.

So like my friend who was molested as a boy, he grew up to harbor both an insatiable attraction to other males sexually AND a latent hatred of them. Hence the reason he continued to go out and have sex with as many of them as he could, unprotected, after he learned he had HIV. A molestee with passive aggression co-morbidity can be a very dangerous vector in the gay male population..

Yep, I say we ignore Johnny C's wilfull oversight of the CDC and Mayo Clinic findings and really get to the bottom of these amazing findings: that major depression in gay males is intrinsically linked [as an "epidemic" in the gay male subculture] to having been molested as little boys. If this knowledge saves lives, we should look at every finding..

Except the CDC and the Mayo Clinic. Just say it. Admit it. You are on the side of any information that shows that "gay is OK and inborn" and you are patently against any information that shows that gayness may be an environmental imposition...and all the implications that come with that.

If we accept that gayness is a byproduct of sexual tampering and imprinting, gayness would be seen in a whole different light. It sure as heck wouldn't be passed off to school kids as "healthy".

What is wrong about gay boys? AIDS for starters. You may have heard it's a deadly epidemic....like gay teen suicides as linked to having been molested..via "major depression" that being molested causes. And the final blow is that even if a gay teen gets to the bottom of his initial wounds, he may not receive reparative therapy even if he wishes it more than anything else in life...even if it means the only escape he has from his imposed-hell is to take his own life. That's what is the scariest thing about Johnny's objections to the CDC and Mayo Clinic's findings: the political goal outweighs individual suicides, if looking at individual suicides means finding out that being gay may be an imprinted and unwanted phenomenon.

 

Why don't people ignore what you say (really) and read (if they're interested) for themselves?

It's not just the APA that sides with my views; that's certain.

 

What is certain is that the Mayo Clinic and especially the CDC does not agree with your views...

Who to trust..hmmm...tough one..

I think I'll go with the CDC..

After all, lives are at stake here. Or doesn't that matter to you that the prestigious CDC has found clues on how to save them from this "epidemic"?

 

Are you THAT certain?

It is your opinion... that the CDC disagrees with present scientific consensuses concerning homosexuality and suicide.

But I seriously doubt that you are so concerned; I could be wrong, but that isn't likely.

You make claims that you interpret your own way. You say what you think or believe; I will just keep my final conclusions, until science reaches a wider consensus.

I surely wouldn't trust basing my views about any of this, upon what you've shared on this site. And I HIGHLY recommend that NO ONE simply believe or agree with what I say... check out everything that anyone says.

We disagree, but I'm surely willing to let others make up their own minds.

 

Let's look at what the CDC said again shall we? You like to wait until a page turns over and hope nobody goes back to look it up. I'm always happy to repost though!..lol..