Gay Teen Suicide: A Range of Causes

Maybe it would help to illustrate my points if they were arraged differently. Bearing in mind that gay men come from gay teens, [for those who aren't clinically mentally retarded...no offense to those who are], consider the following:

Now revisit the OP:

Bearing in mind that gay teens lead to gay men [in case you forgot already], is the hypothetical gay teen suicide scenario plausible?

 

For me, I find little utility in discussing things with people who's minds are already shut and closed.

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How totally and utterly ironic that you would accuse others of having a closed mind Windparadox?

Wow.

You want to dismiss the very important findings of a group of psychiatric professionals in favor of your one-size-fits-all suicide scenario for gay teens...Even if it means some of them will die from a lack of true understanding for their suffering? Is that so?

And I'm the one with a closed mind? That takes some brass g'nads to pull off a switch like that. Gotta hand it to ya..

 

Given that gay men were once gay teens, I will insert the word "teen" next to where it says "men" or "man" in the study from Atlanta, GA. Maybe this will help tie in the subject of this thread with the findings of top mental health professionals.

There, does that help?

 

The study carries weight as it relates to the subject of substance abuse and related problems. It does not correlate that to the cause of sexuality.

No.

A projection based on a misinterpretation but it would be good if they had sound anti-discrimination policies in place IMO

I'll give you a break when you give the relentless bigotry a break, how about that?

That would be an accurate assessment.

Yes but that says nothing to causality of sexual orientation unless you rely on speculative projection which is something of a speciality for you.

That's the only reason I'm here.

Nope, quite the opposite, I truly care about human life.

The major cause of gay specific teen angst (cuz all teens have angst to some degree) is the expectation, indicated by open discrimination and social/legal policy, that some sectors of society dislikes and even hates them for who they are.

What do you think would lead to a drop in the suicide rate and what evidence do you have that such methods are effective?

Thanks, I aim to please.

A projection based on a misinterpretation.

Same.

What do you mean "if"?

and there you go!

Absurd!

Actual evidence of same would be a start.

You completely missed the point of my previous reply. I think its a good study highlighting a particular set of problems (problems which may be exaggerated depending on the location of the sufferer) but you're trying to turn it on its arse by implying that the problems are the cause of the sexual-orientation which it does not imply even in the slightest degree.

I probably better not answer that.

 

I know a lot of gay people and I know one individual about my age (mid 40s) who actually did suffer terrible sexual abuse as a young child.

He still keeps school reports from before that time when his headmaster implored his mother to try to make the boy more "manly" and less "effeminate".

Bear in mind he was about six at the time.

He feels that these characteristics made him a more obvious target for his predator who probably thought he'd be more likely to "enjoy" being molested.

The man was eventually caught and it turned out he was an equal opportunity pervert and was also molesting two young sisters who lived nearby.

What made things worse for this poor man is that a lot of people even, to a certain extent, his own mother implied that he was partly to blame for this because of his effeminate "behaviour"

Well that'd ruin my day!

Did this guy suffer depression and alcohol abuse in adult life?

Absolutely but recently he found a partner who accepted him despite his "flaws".

Life's not perfect for them still but he's in a far, far better place than he ever was before.

I've been asked in this thread if I "care" about the truth and about people. Well I do and I care about people like this guy who, in the past, didn't have a voice.

I'm hoping beyond hope for a change to occur and I also hope I'll live long enough to see it. Sadly I know too many people who didn't. If they were still around, I know what they'd want me to do.

 

That's but one scenario. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, bisexual men aren't the perps molesting boys, it's men who prefer only males to have sex with; that would be a homosexual.

But I undersand you're still trying to make the case that the human mammal is the only singular one exception to what animal behavioralists know: that sexual orientation can be trained by associative conditioning, like Pavlov's dog to a bell.

And good luck with that. You may be able to lull laypeople into a PC-correct viewpoint that human mammals are somehow different. Scientists are a bit more keen to the actual reality though.

It doesn't not correlate it either. It is inconclusive either way. If you read it carefully [a thing you're probably hoping others won't do], you will notice the plea is that based on the strong correlation in findings, all factors must be considered as to the interrelated nature of 1. Gay men. 2. Drug use. 3. Violence. 4. History of childhood molestation and 5. Massive depression [that can and does lead to suicide]. And yes, suicide in teens as well as adult gay men.

It's all there in black and white. Read it.

Here's the second to last sentence from the quote from the Clinical Psychiatric News article on this page,

And remember, the article is about gay men [teens]. So the sentence most accurately reads like this: "In treating substance use disorder [gay male/teen] patients, for example, the ability to achieve sobriety might be impaired if a history of childhood sexual abuse of major depression is not addressed simultaneously"

What the article calls for is "teamwork" in getting to the bottom of drug use by addressing a history of child sexual abuse in the adult [teen] patients. It calls for exploration. It wants answers. It wants to explore child sexual abuse in order to find those answers in gay men [teens]. I don't fear that exploration. Do you? The point is to curb massive depression that leads to suicide by a fearless and searching inventory as to the causes of said problem. No matter what the cost. Nobody in their right mind would stand in the way of or be dismissive of that exploration. If they do, they might literally have blood on their hands..

 

Says you and a bunch of hate groups. Mainstream scientific and medical opinion says not.

We're talking about the complexity of human emotion here not about training a frigging dog.

I'm not the one who needs luck. You're the one fighting a huge shift in demographics brought on by carefully worded arguments and real world experience of actual gay people.

Well they seem to be keeping pretty quiet about it don't they?

It doesn't say that at all, you're reading into it stuff that simply isn't there and trying to form a conclusion based on a false interpretation of the statistics. It is not saying in any way that changes in core sexuality are a direct function of childhood molestation. I know that's what you want it to say, what your argument needs it to say but it's just not there. Either that or the notion that the study is "inconclusive" suggests that the possibly of your argument being correct at least exists which again isn't even being examined by the study.

What they are saying is that a history of being abused as a child may increase a person's susceptibility to drug abuse and I would roundly agree with that premise. They are not suggesting that abuse formed the person's core sexuality. In some rare cases it may well have an effect on a person's sexual response but that does nothing to explain the vast majority of homosexuals who never experienced abuse of any kind.

Some gay people may have experienced abuse as children and as in the example I outlined to you previously they may have been targeted for abuse for the precise reason that they were perceived as being gay. Gay kids are often loners. They tend not to be pack animals like most young boys (and we are talking mostly about boys here) so maybe that makes them easier targets too? To suggest that they wouldn't turn out gay unless they were molested is ridiculous. Most kids are well on their way to their adult sexual orientation way before puberty. Just ask a few gay people, most will tell you that that's the way it goes.

I've noticed a pattern with you throughout various threads.

You start with a flawed premise: "Homosexuality is caused through molestation" or something similar and then go on to build a wholly constructed hypothetical scenario based on that supposition. You then want people to debate the construct on your terms and then get all "Really!" "Seriously!" on them when they disagree or refuse to play along. You honestly seem surprised when people pick holes in your Swiss cheese projections.

I've been wracking my brains trying to come up with a comparison and the best I can come up with is that it's like watching somebody get genuinely angry that the people "just don't seem to care" that Bambi died.

Look at the poll results, it's not working.

 

Reading the poll results at a "Gay & Lesbian Rights" forum is hardly conclusive. Although I can see how you would think they would be. That's how it is living in an intellectual bubble. Things are a bit skewed on the side of the gay lobby. However, I do notice that there are 20% of the people who voted who believe the OP hypothetical scenario is plausible.

And even that doesn't dictate what science is or isn't. I tend to put more weight on the Clinical Psychiatrists' findings. And that is when it comes to gay men with depression & substance abuse issues [often linked] we need to look back at an expressed history of being sexually abused as a child to find out how to cure the problem of deep depression that can lead to suicide.

I pose the question again: Who would be in favor of dismissing any and all advances on finding the root cause of gay teen suicide? To block any momentum in that direction would be accessory to teen death when you boil it down..

 

You need to learn the difference between what's possible(the word used in your poll) and what's plausible.

It's possible that elephants might start falling out of the sky but it's not plausible to suggest that they definitely will.

That's pretty true of what's happening here.

 

You are right-on!! Thanks for the very accurate and logical view.

 

I would say that with the following observation by accredited professionals:

Gives the OP scenario far more of a running shot than "elephants falling from the sky".

What you're doing is diminishing the import of their findings. And I already warned you about the danger of doing that. What you are in essence doing is asking people to ignore people more qualified than you as to the possible causes of gay teen suicides. And that is a willful attempt to block, to create a political atmosphere that blocks. It is to create a coercive environment among the very professionals charged with the well-being of these troubled teens. It is an attempt to remove the life preserver from those who are drowining in deep depression whose roots must be found and weeded out.

No matter what the [political] cost.

 

That's not why I coined the epithet. You substituted the word possible for the word plausible. I drew attention because you didn't seem to realise that one word has a completely different meaning than the other. Either that or you did know but you conveniently stepped over the line and chose a word that you thought would better suit your agenda in the hope I wouldn't notice? And you have the audacity to accuse me of being "here to spin"? Yea right.

Nope, I'm just not allowing you to blindly misrepresent their findings in order to support your thinly disguised and hate-filled agenda.

Yes but I ignored you because you're talking rubbish.

Nope, I'm asking people not to blithely accept your spin and twisted interpretation of the purposes and statements of the study because you're talking rubbish.

That's arse backwards (because you're the one trying to deny the fact that gay people are simply born that way, a point with which all mainstream science agrees) and it's also rubbish.

Why don't you write to those professionals and ask them for written confirmation that their studies set out in any way to investigate findings that support anything like your analysis? The fact that the study was instigated six years ago means they may even have a complete answer already waiting for you. Why not just produce the proof and shut us up for good?

You don't actually give a flying fig about gay people's well being and I don't need to be an accredited professional to dig out that little factoid.

Yea it's all a big political conspiracy and has absolutely nothing to do with concern for the well-being of my fellow man.

There's no point in continuing, I don't think there are any more salient points to be made here. I might step back from time to time to set the record straight but, for the time being, I'm outta here.

 

I agree there's little utility - and much futility, in discussing things with closed minds, however, I still think it's important to stand up for our fellow man and woman, and dispel the nonsense that abounds in this place.

The better side of humanity is worthwhile / is worth posting about. We need to hear more from the better side of humanity in places like this. Letting nonsense slide isn't necessarily the best option. It is important that the homosexual community knows it has our support. And that some of us take our humanity seriously. And CARE. About others.

 

i don't need facts and numbers, research and studies to have a heart and to use my heart when dealing with ppl.

all these word games and ppl wanting and badly needing to score points with (what they think) are smart answers when that's all beside the point.

if we would all have some compassion, try to empathise with what someone's going through, accept that we are all different and that we all have to live our lifes with the good and bad we have in us, less judging and looking after the ppl in our lifes, there would be so much less misery in the world.

but no, instead, the differences have to be highlighted and "celebrated". spending 90% of our time talking about the 10% that's not going right.

no wonder the world's in such a bad state.

and yes, this is a very simple view of things but that's what it could all boil down to: making things simpler. i know this is a forum and i know that's where discussions take place and i know we can't all have the same view and love the same things but i also know all this hostile behaviour isn't doing anyone any favours coz the truth is that most ppl will sadly enough have the same antagonistic and even cruel attitude when dealing with ppl IRL.

if you have a heart, use it.

let the slating begin....

 

Thank you thank you thank you...

You have illustrated the wilfull blindness of political-correctness better than a thousand posts I could log here. And thankfully people charged with keeping teens from killing themselves are a bit more...disciplined...when it comes to regarding raw data and facts that would help them in their mission to prevent these deaths.

"Wishing" gay teen deaths away with your "heart" is not going to solve the problem dear. Getting to the raw nitty gritty of their angst will however. It's called "psychotherapy". Google it when you get a minute.

Anyone who would stand in the way of fearless and searching regressive therapy to keep someone from killing themself, whatever the "well meaning and gentle" motivation, or otherwise.. is guilty of crime IMO.

 

^^ The purpose of psychology is to help people - it wasn't designed as a tool for those with "almighty agendas" to malign other people.

 

Yes, the purpose of psychology is to help people. So why would you try to denigrate or dismiss tools that psychologists use to try to help people? Psychologists learn quite a bit about their trade by surveys, studies and so forth.

I'm taking it that you're not very happy to learn, like they have, that major depression in gay men and teens is intertwined with drug use, violence and a history of having been molested as a child.

I know what it means. And so does every other person who is honest and reads the findings. It means that of the "epidemic" among gay men, it can be traced back to childhood molestation. It doesn't take a genius to do the math on those implications.

Which gender is molesting these boys? [Statistics tell us it's males]. And therefore, we have an epidemic of gay men molesting boys, evidence by them all grown up and rife with depression and problems.

And that ushers in the discussion [you wouldn't want to close a discussion down when it hits a raw nerve would you? Remember, lives are at stake here] of gay teen depression being directly linked to having been molested as kids. They chose the descriptive term of "epidemic". That was not by mistake. That means it's a HUGE problem with adult gay men and teens.

And since this epidemic of depression is interlinked with childhood molestation, how big of a stretch do we have to make to see that their gaynes may very well indeed be a matter of induction instead of an innate drive. Why else would it cause them angst?

The ag people know: you can tamper with any mammal you like sexually and once a threshold is crossed that animal will be oriented towards whatever it was you chose..

And apparently this is causing an epidemic.

Yes, it's possible that gay teens may commit suicide from feeling rejected by society. But apparently that's not what clinical psychiatrists found as a causal source for the men in their study. It was childhood molestation at the root of it. That's powerful stuff and can really mess a person up. Do you deny [Warspite, below] that being molested as a child could wind up causing someone to be morbidly depressed as a teen or adult?

 

Have you considered that the stigma people like you create is one of the key reasons for gay teen suicide?

"You're unnatural", "you're mentally defective", etc.

 

no i have not. absolutely not.

having a heart is not being politically correct. at all. but i am not surprised you would think they are one and the same.

and while we're at it: ppl like you are the cause. not me.
you wish you'd have one tenth of my kindness at some point in your life. you and the ppl around you would benefit from it.
only ppl like you would try and twist my words into something evil. now tell me how taking care of the ppl around you and the ppl you meet in life is a crime?

make no mistake: your verbal diarrhoea does not phase me, it just shows you can talk the hind legs off a donkey but that's about the size of your rhetoric.

 

I agree with you, WHOLEHEARTEDLY! Amen!

 

Tripe.

I am NOT denigrating or dismissing tools that psychologists use to try to help people, however, YOU are misusing the tools that help people in order to further your extraordinarily disingenuous agenda. That you fluff up with fake-concern. Psychologists do varied / many things. Psychologists also sit with their gay patients and give acceptance / give an ear to them. In which case, they see an INDIVIDUAL before them, they do not see a “survey” or a “study” in front of them. They see a precious unique individual. Which makes your cluttered disjointed nonsense on this thread all the more bizarre, out of touch, and nonsensical.

Yes, yes, epidemics of gay depression, epidemics of gay men abusing boys. Keep peddling the ultra negative spin to suit your agenda – while ignoring / not commenting on the widespread prevalence of depression across the entire population, and the very great number of abused children sexually abused by HETEROSEXUAL adults.

 

Are these the poll results you were hoping for when you started this poll Silhouette? heh heh

 

Yes they are Sadistic, because if even 1 % was on the "yes" vote, we'd have to investigate that scenario to the fullest. No effort can be spared to save teen lives..every single one, from every single scenario..

On the contrary Gwen, saving lives is a good thing. Sources of depression in gay teens must be explored, all of them. I think you are being dismissive of the findings of clinical psychiatrists. I think you are being dismissive that they cite child sexual abuse linked to later depression as "epidemic" [their words, not mine]. I'm merely posting what they have published. And after all, these are the experts we should turn to in order to save gay teen lives. What applies to gay men surely can be helpful in finding out what's going wrong with gay teens.

I'm happy to know they're onto something, something big that might cut back the numbers of deaths of gay teens. I would think you would be too? But for some reason you seem uber willing to fend off that wisdom in order to forward an agenda of your own, no matter what the cost, even if it means not discovering what's wrong with a suicidal gay teen in time..

 

According to who?

Since when do minorities get to define what takes priority when it comes to "investigations". Especially 1% minorities.