God created sin - Change my mind

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Maquiscat, Apr 13, 2024.

  1. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    IOW the donkey-riding "King of the Jews" was crucified by the Romans as a scape-goat to avoid thousands of Jews being crucified again in a potential uprising against the Roman occupation (John 11:49-50), and as later occurred.
    He wasn't dead since the blood flowed out under pressure, and his heart was therefore still functioning. What evidence do you have that he was clinically dead? Do you have a death certificate or an ECG record?
    And do you have any evidence that he didn't visit his mates and go fishing with them after the crucifixion (John 21)?
    And there are plenty of biblical references to many other people being Yahweh's son too (eg John 1:12 Luke 3:38 Rom 8:14 2Cor 6:18 Heb 12:5 Gen 6:2). And Psalm 2:7 says that David was even his begotten son, and unlike the donkey rider he was a Jewish king.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2024
  2. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    So why wasn't it a sin for Cainan to kill his brother Abel and for Noah's father to kill a young bloke (Genesis 4)?
    And why wasn't it a sin for Abraham and Noah to have sex with their sisters, and for Lot to sexually assault his daughters?
     
  3. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I know differently than what you have concluded.
     
  4. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Perhaps your understanding of the matter is off. Either way it has no bearing on our own accountability.
     
  5. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a sin for Cainan to kill his brother Abel and for Noah's father to kill a young bloke (Genesis 4), and that it wasn't a sin for Abraham and Noah to have sex with their sisters, and for Lot to sexually assault his daughters since the ten commandments etc are just man-made and didn't apply to them.
     
  6. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Right and wrong are eternal. Even in this day people violate the boundaries and standards which civilized society has remembered and lifted. But those violations don't devalue the truth. What is subjective are the excuses made by sinners in justification of their sins, turning reason upside down, as if trust were an invitation to treason.
     
  7. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    IOW having sex with your sister is not a sin unless you believe it is a sin, given it wasn't a sin for Abraham and Noah to have sex with their sisters.
    And it's not a sin to kill someone unless you believe it is a sin, given it wasn't a sin for Cainan to kill his brother Abel (Genesis 4:15-16) or for Noah's father to kill a young bloke (Genesis 4:23-24).
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
  8. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What is your fixation on ancient Jewish texts. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that immorality and murder are pleasing or acceptable to God. The license to sin is your concoction. Have you no conscience or constitution of your own?
     
  9. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    So why was murder acceptable to Cainan's and Lamech's god given that they were both protected from retribution by the god (Genesis 4).
    And why was incest acceptable to Abraham's and Noah's god when Abraham's sister Sarah became pregnant (Genesis 18:13), and Noah's sister Naamah became pregnant too (Genesis 5:32)?
     
  10. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suggest you stop posting the same thing time after time and actually study . It's quite clear that it was the Jewish religious heirarchy that wanted Jesus dead. Not because he was a problem to the Romans or likely to stir up the people against the Romans, but because he was a danger to them. He exposed their hypocrisy when they told the people what to do and then did the opposite themselves.
    Sons of God. The reference you gave are in terms of SPIRITUALsons of god. Jesus claimed to be THE ACTUAL SON of GOD. you really need to study and understand the differences between actual and spiritual

    And do you have any evidence that he didn't visit his mates and go fishing with them after the crucifixion (John 21)? Do you have evidence he did? Do you have any evidence that legendary Zeus and Hera were king and queen on Mount Olympus. In all these things we only have words on paper - not evidence. .
     
  11. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Cain was punished by God for murdering his Brother. And Abraham didn't have sex with his Sister. He fell in love with and married his half Sister from another household. There's a difference between their love and marriage which was justified before God, and your own or anyone's deviant desires which are not.
     
  12. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Wrong. Cain was not punished for killing his brother, given the god even protected him from retribution when he moved to Nod and lived happily ever after with one of the Nod girls (Gen 4:15-16 Gen 5:12-13). Nor was Noah's father punished for killing a young man either since he was also protected from retribution by the god (Genesis 4:23-24).
    So what evidence do you have that Abraham didn't have sex with his biological sister Sarah when he shacked up with her, and that he only committed adultery with Hagar who gave birth to Abraham's son Ishmail (Genesis 16:1-4)? And if so, who did Abraham's sister Sarah have sex with when she became pregnant (Genesis 18:13) and then gave birth to Isaac if you claim that Abraham wasn't Isaac's biological father?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
  13. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    And unless you were actually there it's quite clear that the Jewish authorities wanted to kill the donkey riding "King of the Jews" to avoid thousands of Jews being crucified again and Jerusalem destroyed by the Romans (John 11:48-50).
    Jesus' biological father was supposedly Heli's son and not a god (Luke 3:23), but while maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is just a matter of opinion without reliable paternity tests and Jesus' biological father could have been a Roman centurion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera
    And David was THE ACTUAL BEGOTTEN SON of GOD (Psalm 2:7) and was even an actual King of the Jews, unlike the donkey-rider.

    Do you have any actual evidence that Jesus existed and that he was crucified and was medically dead, or is that just your personal opinion from a book which you cherry pick, given you reject the story about him going fishing with his mates (John 21) and the story about the Jewish authorities wanting to kill the donkey riding "King of the Jews" to avoid thousands of Jews being crucified again and Jerusalem being destroyed by the Romans (John 11:48-50)?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2024
  14. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You have no idea. If you read the Gos[pels it is quite clear the Romans had nothing against Jesus, but the Religious heirarchy did. If you can't see that then you can't see anything.

    Your Wiki. article about Pantera practically.destroy the idea.. Rightly so. Jesus was a son of Mary and Joseph. Period. And there is enough evidence in my opinion to be sure he existed as a Jewisdh Preacher. The Jews of the time mention him in several writings but in derogatory terms.

    As for David being the actual Begotten Son of God. Nonsense. Learn something of the customs of the day. https://www.workingpreacher.org/com...iguration-of-our-lord/commentary-on-psalm-2-3.

    You are the one who is cherry picking.
     
  15. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Your recitation runs parallel to the ancient record yet without semblance to it. Does the truth bore you? Do you suppose that willful misrepresentation will absolve you of personal accountability for your own life? If the truth isn't true, why lie?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2024
  16. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Were you there? Either way, that's because the Jewish authorities didn't want the donkey rider to incite another Jewish uprising and the Romans crucifying thousands more and destroying Jerusalem (John 11:48-49). If you can't see that then you can't see anything. And it's your if you just cherry pick what the bible says.

    Were you there? Either way, do you have a birth certificate and DNA paternity test to prove that Heli's son was his biological father (Luke 3:23) given that Matt 1:16 says that Jacob's son wasn't his biological father but only his step father. But without a reliable paternity test his father could have been the milkman given those stories were written decades after his biological mother had died.

    That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says.
    "the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7).
    And where does the bible say that the LORD said that the donkey rider was his begotten son too?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2024
  17. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says. But it doesn't change the fact that Genesis 4 says that Cain and Noah's father were protected from retribution after they killed two blokes, and that it wasn't a sin for Abraham to have sex with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar, and for Noah to have sex with his sister Naamah (Genesis 5:32).
     
  18. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Frankly you have no idea what you are talking about. The Old Testament was written 2600 years ago in a country far different from the rest of the world. I gave you a reference showing you how they thought in those days. If you can't understand that and continue to think in modern terms you will never understand the Bible.
    ..
    .Psalm 2:7( written 2600 years ago in the language/understanding of the day) ' God said to me, you are to me as a son and from now on to the future I will be considered your father'. (rather than your actual father).

    You don't even know the difference between the supposedly real 'Son of God' (Jesus) and the 'spiritual sons of God' (Christians).
     
  19. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Were you there? If not, then you have no idea what you are talking about, and you will never understand the bible.
    ..
    .
    Do you have any actual evidence that David's father wasn't the LORD?

    Do you have any actual evidence that Jesus' biological father was a god and not Heli's son or the milkman or a Roman centurion? Do you have a birth certificate or a DNA paternity test to support your claim?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2024
  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    13,182
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's your soul that you are bargaining.
     
  21. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    1. I've studied the OT and the time in which it was written. I also have regular contact with two Jewish Tanakh teachers in Israel so I have a reasonable idea of what I am talking about. You don't.
    2. Do you have any actual evidence that David ever existed.? The Biblical story was written centuries later than when he was supposed to live. The story is simply made up. If Davis ever lived it was as a simply tribal leader. Look up the story of King Omri who is mentioned in the Bible. He, at least, we know of from extrabiblical references as a reall and powerful king of his day. IMO some of events in Davids story is simply taken from the life of Omri. .
    3. I have already said that I don't believe Jesus was anything more than a man whose mother and father were Jospeh and Mary.

    I think you are very confused and keep asking things I have already denied .

    On this subject I shall ignore your future posts.
     
  22. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    So what do the two Jewish Tanakh teachers say about the reason for Jesus' crucifixion and whether he survived the crucifixion and went fishing with his mates as described in the gospels?
    Is that why the Jewish flag includes the Star of David and not the Star of Omri, and Old Jerusalem is named David's City and not Omri's City? .
    So what happened to Heli's son (Luke 3:23) after Jesus' mother shacked up with Jacob's son (Matthew 1:16)?

    I think you are very confused about what the bible actually says. .[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2024
  23. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Messages:
    5,249
    Likes Received:
    1,278
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Maqui made these original comments he asked comments on and I will respond to:

    He stated, “God is the creator of sin, and only God can be”

    The above is a subjective assumption not a proven fact and therefore can not be logical or responded to with logic. “God” in any concept is a human construct not based on objective fact.

    He then stated: “Sin is impossible without free will.”

    Assuming Maqui is defining sin to be an immoral act considered a transgression against divine law, the above statement is not necessarily true because whether the action constitutes a transgression against divine law depends on its inherent nature not whether the actor of it intended it to be a sin.

    I would suggest Maqui confuses whether something might be a sin with whether the actor who engaged in it is morally culpable for iut.

    To be morally culpable for the negative injuries it may cause is a separate issue.

    The sin itself depends on the definition of sin.

    On the other hand whether the actor of it is culpable for the injuries it causes depends on their intent or insight of awareness of engaging in the act,

    Many people with diseases of the mind engage in sin they are completely unaware of.

    The fact they are not held legally liable for the sin because of their defect of reasoning or genuine mistake does not mean there was no sin.

    While we may not hold someone legally responsible for killing someone because of lack of mental capacity does not mean the killing is not a sin. We would not want anyone killed by accident or otherwise.

    Maqui stated, : “If there is no free will then any action we take will be directed and forced. Therefore, it cannot be a sin, since the act would be directed by God. “

    Again I would argue Maqui confuses wilful intent including malice as being necessary for their to be sin. That is not logical. Sin we know from many examples is not done intentionally (freely) but was not forced by “God”. “God” is an assumption that behind all actions other than free one’s is caused by God. That is illogical. People often commit sins without any thought as to the negative consequences they may cause to others or themselves. The statement assigning culpability for all sinful actions of humans that humans did not “freely” choose would suggest “free thought” is limited to thoughts a human engages in only where they accept responsibility for those thoughts. That makes zero sense.

    Maqui then stated again

    “…God is the one who defines what is and isn't a sin.:

    No the above is a subjective statement from Maqui repeating what appears to be his interpretation of Christian sin.

    I confess that it appears Maqui is trying to debate what he thinks is a Christian concept of morality and sin which I would respectfully say is defective.

    It appears to me as if Maqui assumes that Christians believe they are absolved of all sins if they apologize to Jesus and ask his forgiveness and that is all they have to do.

    It also appears he sees “God” as having created humans and therefore is totally responsible for all the decisions we make,.

    In more advanced Christian teachings the use of Jesus as a human personification to explain an otherwise abstract concept of “God” is not a simplistic pagan one where Jesus is God but Jesus is an example or expression of God. Nowhere does Jesus refer to himself as God. He referred to himself as an example of God and read in its actual context, it would mean all of us can be and are saviours or examples of God and we create and connect back into this God by express unconditional love (giving without expecting anything back).

    That definition comes from teekam olem, a concept Jesus would have taught from Judaism and can be found in all organized thoughts that try encourage humans to overcome their negative qualities.

    Sin in that sense is not an absolute black and white act or definition. It is fluid and has degrees of the negative impact it can cause depending on its context and content.

    Furthermore, whether we hold ourselves and others responsible for any action depends on many factors including our individual free will, our socio-economic-environmental-cultural-family conditions, our dna and genetic predisposition, physical and neurological state of health, and so on.

    Finally the thread starter is illogical in that for someone to ask to be convinced someone else is more logical than they are when they have provided no logical formula makes no sense.

    It is impossible to convince someone who states a subjective assumption as a logical fact that their subjective assumption is not an objective fact.

    The thread starter looks to be challenging Jesus to prove his miracles. Cleaning someone's feet is not a miracle, its an act of humility. Nothing Jesus did was a miracle. It became a miracle in stories written by humans. Mostly every story about Jesus is a parable written many times removed from what may have happened and in all cases underneath the miracle was a simple act of humility.

    All religions teach a simple act of humility is the miracle. Humans then distort the rest.

    The irony of all religions and philosophies is how humans must rewrite them to create large than human stories of superhero martyrs. What we have seen time and time again in history is that the greatest of acts, the heroes so to speak were and always will be simple, ordinary people with no special powers who do what we all think is impossible, and that is put someone ahead of their own self.

    I know such people. They do not necessarily have beards, walk on water, or have wings. They are full of weakness, regret, damaged ego, trauma like all of us but somehow they rose above it when needed in the name of helping someone other than themself.

    Sin? No human can be without them that would be illogical. Everytime we sin it is an act as inherent in possibility as it is to do a good deed. The two are inextricably attached. One compels the other in a constant tension to balance them in our own universes we make in our psyches and journies in life.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  24. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    32,025
    Likes Received:
    2,660
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    What do you personally think of the possibility that invisible beings in higher invisible dimensions may be influencing the living to

    do horrible things.... especially if they give these beings an opening......

    such as when they are drunk.... or taking a powerful drug?

    ....
    https://near-death.com/george-ritchie-nde/


    For the record I myself believed in the Soul Sleep idea until I began to study NDE accounts.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2024
  25. Mitty

    Mitty Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2024
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Cool!
    I, however, didn't write the bible about Cain and Noah's father being protected from retribution after they killed two blokes (Genesis 4), or about Abraham having sex with his sister Sarah (Genesis 18:) and committing adultery with Hagar (Genesis 16:1-4), and about Noah having sex with his sister Naamah (Genesis 5:32), and Lot having sex with his daughters (Genesis 19).
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2024

Share This Page