"God is more important than the Truth!!"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Modus Ponens, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    - Great line from Crimes and Misdemeanors.

    It's a line delivered by a Jewish grandfather to his skeptical teenage grandson, after the grandson makes a rational challenge to the grandfather's ancestral faith.

    So let's discuss. What is the grandfather getting at with his riposte to his grandson? There is of course the stock atheist interpretation: that devout persons will cynically disregard rationally-founded truth, if it contradicts or is at odds with their preferred religious beliefs.

    I would stipulate from the outset that this stock view is not what Woody Allen was getting at, when he makes the grandfather voice this sentiment to his grandson.

    What then is meant by the expression, "God is more important than the truth" - ?

    I take it to mean this: that there are different modes of meaningful engagement with life, not all of them exactly compatible. Finding meaning through rational inquiry, propositional knowledge (where propositions have truth-value), and discovery and proof is one way - a very important way - we get this engagement, But it isn't the only way, and for many people, it's not the most important way.

    There are other ways to get at meaning, some of them with a more or less casual attitude to propositional truth. A life not of research but of active good works, is one way in which people can find a strong and abiding source of meaning in life. Those pursuing good works often do not reflect on the justifications of the good that they pursue; they take it as understood what is right, and they act on that as best they can.

    Others indulge in their aesthetic sensibilities - communing with nature, or creating and appreciating high art. It is idle to ask a question like, Is Beetohven's Seventh Symphony true? Searching after the propositional truth-value of a great work of art, typically misses the point of finding meaning through art.

    Lastly, we have another faculty - that of (for lack of a better term) the "spiritual sense." In contrast to aesthetic sense, which involves a kind of reverie with an object that is an other to us on the 'horizontal' plane, i.e something that we are confronted with in the environment of our world, the spiritual sense yearns for a kind of consummation with a radical other, an other to us on the 'vertical' plane, i.e. some entity that is not merely other to you or to me, but other to the whole world that we know, other to the world in toto. The spiritual sensibility is most spectacularly manifest in mystical experiences, naturally.

    Through rational inquiry, we can ask pointed questions about the mechanisms behind the aesthetic and the spiritual forms of meaningful engagement with our world; but that leads us to neglect the experience itself, kind of like how trying to explain why our own personal golf swing works so well for us, can lead us to screwing up our shot.

    This is what I take the religious to be talking about, when they complain that atheists 'willfully turn away' from religious truth. They do not find their principle mode of meaningful engagement in the world, with reason and proof. God is more important than the truth. They will accuse atheists, of missing the forest for the trees.

    As an atheist and someone totally committed to rational truth, I really don't know what to say in response to the believer, here. Nothing is more important than rational truth, for people like myself; between ourselves and the believers, there is only a kind of tragic divide, the ultimate Either/Or as recognized by the Christian existentialist Soren Kierkegaard.
     
  2. dixiehunter

    dixiehunter Banned

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    And too imagin that many thought Obama was the truth, and supream being.

    What a disapointment that was to many.

    Reality set in....He turned out to be a Joke.
     
  3. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    oh bless your heart. Noooo, Christians do not have a problem with your belief. But it seems to me that you must have a problem with your own beliefs since you are so full of thoughts and questions about it. Of course you are going by the philosophical meanderings of Woody Allen?? So i can see the world of doubt in which you find yourself. But no. Continue on with your way of thinking. We can live with it as long as you are able to live with the beliefs of others whatever they may be. :juggle:
     
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  4. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    Obama's problem was not in speaking the truth, but in acting on the truth he knew. For certain in that he has showed himself to be just like the common run of men.

    By the way, one good preliminary index of a person's concern for truth, is correct spelling. Might want to work on it.
     
  5. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    Hah, that's a laugh.

    You're good at bringing the humor, let me tell you. Questioning and doubting is an essential part of the process of rational inquiry; it's integral to how people like me - who take propositional truth seriously - find meaning and figure things out. Typical that your sort automatically regards our strength as a kind of weakness. You tell me more about yourself, than anything else.

    Oh, we can live with it - we just can't think with it. It is mystifying to us, how you can.
     
  6. dixiehunter

    dixiehunter Banned

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    Yah right....my spelling is the least of your concerns. My point was put accross. That's what matters.
     
  7. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    goodness. You started out so tolerant, so desiring of tolerance for your beliefs. And i'm willing to be tolerant of your beliefs. Are you willing to be tolerant of mine. We don't have to fight. We'll just discuss anything other than our own personal beliefs about faith or woody allen. :date:
     
  8. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    Truth is beautiful, without doubt.
    but so are Lies. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
     
  9. MuzzleBreak

    MuzzleBreak New Member

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    Truths:
    We will never be able to prove the existence of God.
    We will never be able to prove the non-existence of God.

    Each of us will be exposed to teachings, experiences, ideas, and beliefs of others. From these we should form our opinion of whether God exists, whether it matters, and what is the definition of Good & Evil, and how should we then act. These opinions' chances of validity would seem to be directly related to the quality and scope of experience and learning--except perhaps in a case like direct revelation, if, in our opinion, there is such a thing.:mrgreen:
     
  10. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept the claim that these propositions are true. Depending on how one defines 'God,' it is possible to proffer a proof of God's existence, or indeed even a proof of the nonexistence of God. We are not at an impasse here - all we need to do is agree on what we mean by 'God.'
     
  11. MuzzleBreak

    MuzzleBreak New Member

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    If we agree that God = Dog, then you are correct.
    If we choose God to be simply an eternal higher intelligence capable of action, then any offered "proofs" would just be opinions or word plays. Right?
     
  12. MisLed

    MisLed New Member

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    Are you going to post your definition of God?
     
  13. MuzzleBreak

    MuzzleBreak New Member

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    That seven word definition is as about as minimalist as I can get.
     
  14. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

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    Do you consider logical deduction to be mere word play - ?

    I would say, and I have in this subforum at numerous times in the past, offered a proof reductio ad absurdum of the existence of a god fitting the description of "an eternal higher intelligence capable of action." In my view, this is an impossible entity.

    Anyway, the point of my thread here, is that meaning and meaningfulness is not something that is exhausted or monopolized by propositional truth. Religion can have genuine, abiding meaning for people, even if the truth-value of the claims it makes cannot be ascertained.
     
  15. MuzzleBreak

    MuzzleBreak New Member

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    "Religion can have genuine, abiding meaning for people, even if the truth-value of the claims it makes cannot be ascertained."

    Absolutely. And to be a "Religion" it is necessary that some of its claims must not be able to be ascertained.
     

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