God is not intelligent

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Patricio Da Silva, May 26, 2022.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Or rather, God is not an intelligence. The distinction is significant. God is an abstraction, and a mystery.

    What I mean is that there is a spiritual basis to life, that there is spirituality permeating all things and this divine source is not an intelligence. It is just source, a spiritual source sans intelligence. So, to say it is intelligent or stupid presumes intelligence, and given that it is not, these descriptors are not applicable.

    Now, I cannot be so arrogant to presume these things as fact, so preface all that I write on the subject with 'in my opinion...it is my belief that.....'., noting that to assert this preface on everything I express about it would be cumbersome, so just assume it henceforth.

    My God is not theistic nor deistic, it is more on the Einsteinian pantheistic model. It does not intervene or answer prayers, and without undermining prayer, because, in my view, true prayer is meditation and meditation is the fastest path to God. This God is our native state, it is our destiny, our natural heritage and all souls, like bubbles in in the ocean, are bubbling upward and will eventually reach the sky, it is inevitable. The only 'hell' is the misery we create for ourselves but it is not permanent. Through this 'hell' we are forged like one forges steel through a furnace. Trouble, difficulty,pain and misery and the like, are the means by which we grow. There are higher states where misery fades and earth's density hasn't reached it, though it has on other planets. Each of us will eventually evolve to higher densities and reincarnate on planets where there are high densities, where live is without pain and misery and each of us has this to look forward to.

    This divine source is welling up everywhere. For me, this is the only thing that makes sense and the nice thing about it it does not conflict with science and where it does agree with religion insofar as that it is taken on faith as it is not falsifiable.

    This divine source is not a personal god, and there is no such thing as a personal god. This divine source permeates all things, is the source of all things, and resides at the center of the human soul, whereupon all living things are but tentacles on the octopus of god. But, where that metaphor breaks down is that an octopus is has intelligence, and God does not, as God is beyond intelligence and incomprehensible. THis divine source does not exist in time and space, it is behind it, the source of it.

    The only way to find God is to find oneself. It has been said, 'Know thyself, and the truth shall set you free'. Now, that quote can be attributed to someone or some thing, but I believe it is older than our planet and has been around for billions of years.

    Much of my philosophy is borrowed from ancient eastern philosophy and a few modern mystics, sages.

    All of them teach reincarnation, and I take reincarnation on faith, as well, not to mention there is some evidence for it. It is also logical to me.

    When we die, our essential selves, our souls, noting that "I' and the 'soul' are the same thing, we do not perish. Death is an illusion and we are eternal.

    The basic premise of eastern philosophy is that you keep coming back, you grow spiritually a little bit with each life, and this continues for however long it takes for the individual, the soul, to reach the Godhead, AKA 'self-realization', 'samadhi', 'nirvana' or 'heaven' or whatever term endears one the most. It has been said by most of these mystics that one can accellerate the process via meditation, or the modern term now is 'mindfulness' techniques. I also believe that during the first century or first few centuries when Christianity was coagulating and forming into various factions and struggling to achieve something, the Gnostic Christians believed that Christ had a secret, esoteric teaching and that teaching was more in tune with eastern philosophical concepts, accepted reincarnation, and it was Orthodoxy which deviated from Christ, whereupon they cherry picked his teachings to conform to that which would empower the political power of the church.

    This is my faith, this is what I believe. I just thought I would share these ideas with anyone who cares to read them, and/or dispute or be amused by them.

    Thanks for reading.
     
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  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I see a lot of positives in that.
     
  3. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with this.

    I tend to view this thing as data. All biological organisms are the results of data. Something, somewhere guides even the smallest of organisms to play this thing we call a survival game. Take for example, the Covid virus. Every mutation is based on previous data that changes its makeup in order to continue to spread and survive. While it's not intelligent in any conventional way, it is a mechanism that relies on its own actions and reactions to the environment it finds itself in.

    If viruses can do this, the vast treasure trove of data generated by a brain is on an astronomical scale. Where does our data go? That for me is where the mystery lies.
     
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  4. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought that a better name for god would be the laws of physics, most of which are also fraught with mystery. In fact it is obvious to me that the purpose of religions is to provide comforting answers to mysterious things. It is a good thing. I support it. But I don't need it personally. I'm comfortable enough with the existence of mysteries.

    I'm a fan of religious writings as well. The bible, bhagavad Gita, Koran, Talmud and others all provide a sense of belonging to the faithful and a map to morality that benefits society greatly. I wish our society were more religious.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    The idea that the basis of the universe is "information" is popular among current day scientists. I wish I could explain it but I can't. It makes no sense to me.
     
  6. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would say I wish our society were more spiritual, not religious. I think spirituality and religion can go hand in hand, but not necessarily so. Religion can be hijacked and used for power and greed when their aims are not purely spiritual love and light. But if religions are practiced with the spirituality they were intended for, then they are very good things.
     
  7. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Well, God not being intelligent certainly explains a lot about humanity.
     
  8. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    I know that it relies on quantum entanglement, beyond that, it's math way above my comprehension.
     
  9. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    It really goes back to Maxwell's Demon - a seeming paradox that physicists have toyed with for over a century. If you know the paradox, it suggested that it might be possible to do work [create potential energy] without expending energy. But the problem was resolved when it was successfully argued that in order for the demon to open the trap door [see paradox], it requires information. And that information accounts for the apparent free work. It isn't free at all.

    Later it was shown that a machine can be made that converts information into energy. In fact this was the last guest lecture I attended as I was completing my undergrad in physics.

    Just to stress the point, it was shown that a machine can be built that converts information into energy.

    This suggests that information and energy are related much like mass and energy are related. And this goes back to the early sixties in the world of computational physics

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer's_principle
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
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  10. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    An experiment demonstrating this was published in 2010

    https://physicsworld.com/a/information-converted-to-energy/
     
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  11. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    For many decades, physicists argued about what constitutes the most fundamental concept in physics. For some time it was a battle between energy and momentum. Then energy assumed the role as the most fundamental concept. This because energy can manifest in a multitude of forms - heat, motion, mass and gravitation, potential energy, chemical potential...

    But now many people suspect that information may be the most fundamental concept in physics. Energy is just another manifestation of information.

    This is somewhat striking given the concept of a simulated universe, which some philosophers and physicists take seriously now. There is a real argument that we really live in a simulation. And even if not, we are finding tantalizing clues about information buried in models like string theory. One physicist found equations in string theory that are essentially the same equations we use for error correction in complex data systems. So from a number of directions, the world keeps suggesting that we really live in an information universe.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
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  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    What is really freaky is one argument I read, claiming and demonstrating point by point that Quantum Mechanics makes much more sense if viewed as a peer-to-peer communications system, rather than a physical space-time system. In other words, it is reasoned, Quantum Mechanics is a byproduct of living in a simulation.

    If viewed from this perspective, QM isn't hard to understand. For example: Of course a particle can disappear from one place and pop up in another place. Of course it can exist at two places at once. No big deal in the computer world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
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  13. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think it is a fad in science. Those come and go with mysterious phenomena.
     
  14. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Now all we need to know is what is offering up the information and what is listening to it. It is akin to politics. Somebody offers an opinion and millions then turn it into fact.
     
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your "god" is not the same god in the Christian view.

    Yet it seems your perspective is very similar to what is known as "Deism".

    Again, this isn't exactly what the traditional view of Christianity says.

    Regardless, even if you (mistakenly) think it is "inevitable", there is still some reason to try very hard, because it could be long long time (countless lifetimes) before you get there.

    Have you listened to the arguments for why hell is a just and "good" thing?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Or it might be the complete reverse of that.
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ever notice how, in evangelical circles, they place an emphasis on "a personal god"?

    There might be something for you to think about there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is still a possibility of reincarnation without all souls reaching "Godhead".
     
  19. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    If I may presume that, because you wished to share your conceptualization of God with us, you are open to feedback, about it, I will say that the manifest flaw is your failure to define, "intelligence." If you were to do so, I have a feeling my critique would be that you are thinking of the term in too narrow a fashion, which is a common mistake, in considering the Divine-- using our own conception of things, as a reference. But it seems illogical, to me, that something without intelligence, could give rise to a world and a universe, in which intelligence abounds.

    To be clear, I am speaking of intelligence in functional terms. To give an example of what I mean by this: there is a type of parasitic flatworm, IIRC, which requires both wolves and moose, in order to complete its life cycle. One stage is spent in the wolf. Then it lays eggs (let's say), which come out in the wolf's excrement. The moose unknowingly consumes these when munching on grass, on which a wolf has previously done his business. This gives the larvae the environment they need to grow, to maturity, but not the environment they need in order to reproduce; for that, they need to get back inside of a wolf. Would you believe that these flatworms have "evolved" in such a way as to be able to cause the moose to secrete a scent that draws wolves to it? If this is not "intelligence," you will need to explain to me why it is not. And the idea, BTW, that such a life plan could have come into being randomly, by chance, seems to me as the epitome of ridiculousness. Evolution is guided by more than just coincidence; Nature has intelligence; hence, how can God, not?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
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  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I thought I made that clear?
    No, it's not. Deism believes in a Supreme being. I do not. I believe that life has a spiritual source, but that source is not a being, or entity, and that source is welling up as life, everywhere one looks. Whether that source permiates the inorganic, I don't know, but I believe it does permeate all organic life. My view is closer to pantheism.
    Nature does humanity a favor by erasing our memories of past lives. Occassionally, memories break through and it is possible to recover memories of past lives in regressive hypnotherapy, though not every one who tries it is able to do it. No doubt, there is confabulation in the attempts.

    We live in hell, earth is Hell, and it's purpose is to incentivize achieving enlightenment.

    So, in the ultimate sense, one could argue that evil has a just purpose, but that doesn't mean she should approve of evil, reward it, or be it.

    I believe consciousness, the 'soul' in humans, similar to how organisms start small, grow, achieve fruition, that the soul starts out being synthesized in one celled creatures, reincarnates up the genetic line, over a process of many millions of years, and eventually reaches the human level .

    I believe that there are more advanced levels (called 'higher densities' ) on other planets but it is the highest level on our planet

    The point being, each and every one of us came this far, so it is logical we will continue on the journey until we reach enlightenment, despite any and all our effort, it is inevitable, it is our natural heritage, just as bubbles will find their way to the sky. Those who commit crimes will stunt their growth, but eventually they will become good and work it out. Reincarnation grants the soul the opportunity to be all things, to be good, to be bad, to be rich, to be poor to be female, to be male, to be straight, to gay and just about everything in between, we must be and try everything on the path to enlightenment. Life is a crucible though which the tempered steel of spiritual growth is forged. There is no shortcut. That is why I assert it is 'inevitable', it's just a matter of time. The mystics tell us we can accelerate the process via meditation, and it does make sense.

    That is what I believe. I am not trying to convince or convert anyone, but I have a view that I haven't seen many offer, that there is no supreme being,( no personal 'god' in other words) but life has a spiritual basis and souls are eternal, so I thought would put it up for discussion on this forum. So, one could say my philosophy is quasi-pantheism, with a dash of eastern mysticism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
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  21. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Both are two sides of the same coin, as it were.
     
  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm 70, and have explored many spiritual paths over the course of my life. THe concept of a 'personal God', though poetic, isn't real to me. It doesn't make sense.
     
  23. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Just as bubbles can get lodged on a barnacle or rock in the ocean, they will eventually dislodge and continue upward.

    The idea of permanent limbo doesn't make sense to me.
     
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  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not all Christians believe it is permanent. They might just suffer for a very long time and finally be extinguished.

    Look at the Catholic version of Purgatory, not permanent (though their Hell is).
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It doesn't make sense, or it doesn't fit with your experience?

    Maybe you should read about various Catholic Christian mystics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022

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