Hank Henograaff rips into "Heaven Is For Real"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by saintmichaeldefendthem, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If you're an evangelical Christian, you have to be living under a rock to have not heard about Heaven Is For Real written by Pastor Todd Burpo, an account of his 4 year old son's near death experience and his account of heaven. The book has started a wave of excitement in the evangelical community. Colton, who is now eleven, continues to tell the inspirational account wherever he goes.

    Hank Henograaff is none too happy, though, about what he perceives to be scriptural errors in the book that has become so popular. The esteemed host of "The Bible Answer Man" cites his many objections and questions the factuality of the account based what the Bible says about heaven and eternal life. Among these objections, Hank contends with:

    1. Jesus tells Colton that those going to heaven will receive new bodies, but not those going to hell.

    2. God is pictured on a throne along with Jesus at his right hand and the archangel Gabriel at his left. The Holy Spirit seems to be off to the side and not part of the triumvirate.

    3. The occupants of heaven are pictured as winged creatures.

    Clearly there are a lot of theological issues with the details of Colton's vision and I'm not trying to bash Henograaff for picking up on them. I actually like his show and he's very well informed (for a Protestant, he he). But what's missing here is the context. Colton was just 4 years old when he went through this experience.

    I think of John the Revelator who was assumed into heaven as an old man. Even as a mature individual, he saw things that were far to wonderful to him. Many happenings had to be explained to him by an angel and even then, he struggled as a finite being to describe for the rest of us the infinite realities he was witnessing. If John had such a difficult time understanding heaven, how much more a 4 year old boy who has not yet learned to systemize, prioritize, and recount a series of events?

    If we can start from the premise that 11 year old Colton is not maliciously trying to hoodwink people with a fabricated account of heaven, then we can take what he says in the context of his limited understanding. Certainly in remembering his vision, his recollection might be polluted by popular images, such as heaven being filled with winged beings, etc. It would certainly be a mistake to form a body of theology based on his account and I don't think anyone is trying to do that.

    It seems, listening to Hank, that he's trying to counter a threat, a quasi cult of deliberate theological error poised to lead Christians astray and doing so, has missed the entire point of the book. Heaven is for real. A little boy visited it, and it's the happiest place he's ever seen and he came back to tell us about it as best he can remember. The purpose of the book is to inspire us and reassure us that we have a sure basis for our hope, but that message gets lost if we are too quick to get hung up on doctrinal technicalities.
     
    Neutral and (deleted member) like this.
  2. elijah

    elijah New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,173
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If the book goes against scripture, then its in error, and thats more detrimental to the christian faith than anything positive that comes out of it.
     
  3. k7leetha

    k7leetha Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,499
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A kid goes through some bad crap, has an elaborate, detailed dream (about things he's already familiar with) and suddenly it's a book.

    *twirling finger* woodeefreakindoo.

    If the exact same thing had happened, but instead the kid thought he was in Valhalla, he'd have had no audience. People are just drinking the stupid water and finding anything (including dreams of nearly-dead 4 year olds) to fit what they want to believe.

    How many people who have bought the book understand anything about psychology? My guess is near to zero.
     
  4. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That's a respectable opinion. But not all Christian works are meant to be theologically sound. In fact, C.S. Lewis and his contemporary J.R. Tolkien believed in the power of myth to bring people to an understanding of the truth, much like the parables of Jesus. If someone can read this book and be brought to the realization that heaven exists and it's more wonderful and beautiful than anything we can imagine, it's a step in the right direction.


    I've never read the book Heaven Is For Real, but I've read about the movement it started and the encouragement it's brought to so many. People are brought to the truth in shades and degrees. We grope about in the dark, and some of us toward any light we can see. I'll give you another example. The Christmas hymns are designed to tell a story and muster faith in Jesus, born of a virgin, incarnated and one of us. This is a cause for great celebration. Never mind that he wasn't born on a cold winter's night, there were far more than 3 shepherds and the wiseman didn't arrive until Jesus was a toddler. And no, the herald angels didn't sing. Etc, Etc.

    I do believe that correct doctrine is important. Some of the most important battles of the early church were about doctrine. Satan has attempted to destroy Christianity through the infiltration of heresies, gnostic gospels, cults, and various other errors and has thus far not succeeded because of stout Christian defenders of the true faith. However, I think that when doctrinal correctness is asserted even in venues that don't call for it, the larger point gets missed. People aren't necessarily lead to truth by impeccable doctrine. We are led by forces far more mysterious and under the surface. Stories have the power to lead us to truth, regardless of how doctrinally sound they are.
     
  5. elijah

    elijah New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,173
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I see your point.
     
  6. Akhlut

    Akhlut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,805
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    But, he's just four! He wouldn't have received a near mortal wound in glorious combat, so why would he go to Valhalla? No, that doesn't make theological sense, bruder! Are you trying to corrupt the Sagas with some extraneous gobbledygook?


    Anyway, my thoughts on the matter at large: human memories are imperfect and people can be made to believe that they have memories of things that simply cannot transpire. The kid may have had some sort of unusual dream-like state while he was in a near-death state and has now transformed the memory in his mind to conform with his expectations of Heaven. His experience, frankly, doesn't really mean anything beyond he almost died and had a weird dream-like experience.
     
  7. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It's well known that people who have near death experiences tend to couch them in the mythology they grew up with, similar to the way people with stigmata tend to have them in the same places where the statue of Jesus at their familiar church had them.

    NDE's can hardly be considered evidence of any kind of afterlife. Also, appealing to the confusion of the person having the NDE is not evidence of anything but confusion.
     
  8. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree with the first part which is why I don't think Hank is doing any good quibbling over the details. What I do believe is that a little boy was taken into heaven. After all, why not? If God can take John into heaven, then why couldn't he do it again? Everything boils down to "Heaven is for real". The details are unimportant. It's obvious that I'm starting from a position of faith in heaven to begin with and it's nice to have a confirmation, not of exactly what heaven will be like, but the fact that heaven exists and awaits my arrival. If I knew nothing else other than that Jesus will be there in heaven, which is part of Colton's account, that's enough for me. Seeing Jesus makes heaven a perfect place.
     
  9. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    0
    To the extent that your criticism is that quibbling over details is not a very strong critique, I agree.
     
  10. Modus Ponens

    Modus Ponens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,663
    Likes Received:
    433
    Trophy Points:
    83
    What strange stories all these talking animals tell to one another - !
     
  11. Lokiate

    Lokiate New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Like others have stated, he's a child that had a near death experience.

    Of course he's going to have a vivid dream, it's part of the human experience. If that dream fills him with a sense of meaning, and does something positive for him, it's all good. My only issue is the father exploiting this child for personal gain.
     
  12. FreeWare

    FreeWare Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    7,350
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    38
    As Saintmichaeldefendthem has pointed out, if lies (I believe the phrase was 'truth in shades and degrees') can get people closer to one's own religion then that's apparently a good thing.
     
  13. Lokiate

    Lokiate New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And that I take issue with that. I get that people need inspiration, everybody does in one form or another, but exploiting ones own son for self gratification, and 'keeping the faith strong' is sickening. This Burpo guy is creep.
     
  14. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    62,072
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Well said.
     
  15. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    0
    from ye Olde Bible:

    Romans 3:5-8

    5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
    -----

    Paul condemns Machiavellianism. Evil means do not justify good ends.

    “Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
     
  16. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If you're referring to Colton's testamony, I hardly think an 11 year old boy is deliberately trying to deceive anyone. The only sure thing I take away from "Heaven Is For Real" is that heaven is indeed for real and I allow myself to be encouraged by this boy's testamony. If he were trying to create a body of after life theology based on unbiblical claims, I might think differently. But that's not what's going on here.
     
  17. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    62,072
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    0
    People have had all sorts of dreams and visions when they are ill.

    Once when I ran a high fever for several days I saw green slime on the walls.

    The boy is guiltless .. unless he was under the influence of religious fanaticism within his family... or deliberately seeking attention.

    The charlatan is the father, who is trying to make money...
     
  18. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'd rather assume that's not the case unless proven otherwise. From what I've seen and read about this book and movement, I don't think that's what's happening.
     
  19. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    62,072
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Of course its what's happening.. no better than Falwell, Robertson or Hal Lindsey.. Its about money.
     
  20. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Do you have proof of this, or do you just like to slander people with presumed ill intentions?
     
  21. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just so people know I brought up this topic already.
     
  22. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    14,003
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is a very good post.
     
  23. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thank you for that.
     
  24. Caeia Iulia Regilia

    Caeia Iulia Regilia New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    624
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i find the book equally as interesting for what's not in it. No superman, no batman, no dinosaurs, no Santa, even, nothing of the sort. And considering that the child is 4 at the time, I would expect to find such things in a hallucination. Kids that young aren't going to be able to remember that Superman is fake and Gabriel is real. And they may very well have Santa in there. Heck even adults know more about the Santa in Christmas than the Jesus in Christmas.
     
  25. saintmichaeldefendthem

    saintmichaeldefendthem New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,393
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And in fact, the book is very on theme to its title. It isn't an expert theologian's wrist slitting exposition of the afterlife. It isn't designed to introduce false teachings on the subject of heaven. It's written with a child's perspective and it's written to assure people of the fact of heaven, not its characteristics. Heaven is for real. The message is simple, profound, and a sure hope that we have something to look into. It's almost a cretin thing to do to have religious experts such as Hank Hennograff ripping apart the innocent recollections of a little boy who went to heaven and came back to tell us about it. He should pick on somebody his own size.
     

Share This Page