Happy Christmas from multiculturalism

The conversation was:

I disagree, and even if we took this as being the definition, I do not know anyone who wants the government to run everything in the country. Run a poll or something and find out, but I'm guessing that close to 0% of the people you'd find on this forum or in the "real" world would want this. Most people work for private business and like it that way.

If you believe that there's a significant percentage of any Western population that would want this, then I think you're living in some kind of dillusion.

There's no real definition any longer. It's mainly used to insult anyone who's not a conservative. It used to be defined by people owning the rights to production (not government as you miguidingly think - that's communism). In this definition, we could consider modern day cooperatives as being built of "socialist" principles. Or even a company where the share holders are the employees.

But, like I said, in the modern day context, there is not clear definition and therefore no clear group. Mind you, the same can be said for capitalists; there are no real capitalists or capitalist countries. The US subsidises it's industry (farming, space exploration, commercial aeroplane development etc...). So does the EU.

And when you actually understand this, you can see that people throwing the "socialist" word around (usually as an insult), is rather petty and meaningless. It simply serves to illustrate that the person using it doesn't understand the meaning of the word or how the world around them actually works.

 

Yes, I already knew what the conversation was. I took it into consideration in my replies.

Alright, socialists want the state to run state services. As the Socialist Party says ...

No to privatisation and the Private Finance Initiative (PFI). Renationalise all privatised utilities and services, with compensation paid only on the basis of proven need.

Fully fund all services and run them under accountable, democratic committees that include representatives of service workers and users.

Free, publicly run, good quality education, available to all at any age. Abolish university tuition fees now and introduce a living grant. No to academies!
A socialist NHS to provide for everyone's health needs - free at the point of use and under democratic control. Kick out private contractors!

Keep council housing publicly-owned. For a massive building programme of publicly-owned housing, on an environmentally sustainable basis, to provide good quality homes with low rents.
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You wouldn't describe the Labour Party as "socialist" would you?

And no, of course I don't think anything like a significant % of the population wants to pay the price of that, but declining numbers want what the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems offer either.

There's always a definition, but socialism is all but dead in this country and the idea that people can own anything of the country's assets under any workable political system is a myth.

There's always a definition, and a clear political party that wants that, but true socialism, like true capitalism, is all but dead in the Western world. The people owning anything is a myth. Socialists and capitalists need to keep each other in check, otherwise we have the worst of both, and in no way did I throw "socialist" around in a petty or meaningless way (if that's what you are implying). When you understand all of this, we might move on.

What did you think of what Thatcher said in the video?

 

I thought you took that quite well, considering.

Bombing the Belgrano was a crime. She may claim moral justification and say she doesn't care about legalities and the most important thing was to protect her boys . But if the ship was outside an exclusion zone, bombing it was criminal.
Creating the conditions which caused an elected MP to die as he did, when he clearly had the backing of the electorate, would have been a crime in England. NI is part of the UK. Treating it differently, as she treated us differently, isn't quite cricket either.
Taxing us differently broke the UK contract. She is a lawyer, she knew that. I don't know if that is viewed as breaking criminal law or civil law, but wars have been fought over much less.
Ejecting vulnerable and mentally disabled people into the community, when they have been institutionalised and are clearly unable to fend for themselves was a crime and it caused unnecessary suffering and death. I saw that first hand.
Heseltine may have covered her tracks regarding Liverpool, but I live near Greenock...which was the industrial powerhouse of Scotland for CENTURIES and has now been allowed to decline.
There used to be no drugs in that town at all. Thatcher changed the border controls and Greenock is now known as the heroin capital of Scotland. Many, many people have suffered and died through her policies and continue to do so. For that alone, her acts might be considered criminal and are criminal in my personal opinion.
But you defend her. On what grounds? What have you possibly seen while the rest of the country saw the things above and many I haven't mentioned? Are you blind or incapable of accepting facts?

I hate debating women. Do you know personal attack is not allowed here? Now evidence your personal attack. Where have I said I think I am smart?

I don't worry. Again you're better replying to points I made.

No, it's based on evidence. Take a look at what happened to the NHS when the Tories were in power. What happens to it every time they're in power. The only thing saving the NHS is the sure knowledge that is they intefere with it in too obvious a way, the people will not like it. The only thing that saved the NHS when they were last in power, was their being voted out of power. Then Labour had to pay a small fortune to bring it back up to provide anything like the service it is supposed to provide. If you are old enough to recall the winter of discontent, you also remember waiting lists years long. Caring government? And that is the tip of the iceberg as you well know. They are currently using the economic situation to justify pulling all kinds of benefits from people who need them as well as people who don't. But that is what they would like to be doing regardless of the economic crisis, because that is their whole lack of ethos from beginning to end. They don't care about the people. They care about money, conserving , making more money and that is their limit. The only time they do anything beneficial to the people, is when it also benefits them.

Yes, I've enjoyed that immensely. We've put up with it in the other direction for a few centuries, now it's going the other way it won't last long will it.

On the subject of voting, are you ever going to come out of the closet and mention your own political leanings?

Have a go.

I can't watch her, it's against my principles. I imagine she related some well known anti-EU Tory Party lines and nothing surprising in that, it's what they're generally known for and their back-benchers are still militantly shouting, i.e. not an original Ratcatcher creation.

Did she have a choice? Her Party was right to eject her, she lost the plot. Or rather she never had the plot but her megalomania became increasingly obvious and impossible to hide. She never was anything but a dangerous caricature in the first place. Culture of personality who began to believe her own Press.

The SNP has shown it will do what is right at the time regardless of ego and regardless of London Press commentary, which no one up here cares about anymore. Had SNP joined the Euro, it would have been no different from all of the other Eurocountries which have now, with the exception of UK, agreed to the new Eurosystem. If you want to criticise all of Europe, except the UK, by all means. However, as you point out, SNP has shown it is capable of reacting to changing political environment. That is a good thing, for people. As opposed to that "the lady's not for turning" crap Thatcher spouted during her most sickening ego trips.

 

For tamora.............

No such thing as society........your favourite soiled pants fanatic!

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106689

May she live long in her nappies for the destruction she and her cronies caused with their greed and thievery!

Regards
Highlander

 

Bombing the Belgrano was not a crime. Even the Capt of the Belgrano said: "It was an act of war. The acts of those who are at war, like the submarine's attack, are not a crime ... The crime is the war. We were on the front line and suffered the consequences. On April 30, we were authorised to open fire, and if the submarine had surfaced in front of me I would have opened fire with all our 15 guns until it sank." The Argentinian govt also conceded that the sinking was a legal act of war.

I take it you mean MP and convicted IRA terrorist Bobby Sands who died whilst on a hunger strike? I’m sorry but being an MP does not mean he can expect the government of the day to adhere to his wishes. The same situation would not have arisen in the rest of the UK. We were not bombing each others houses and shops, or tarring and feathering and knee capping each other.

Taxing you differently? Meaning trialling the poll tax in Scotland? Sorry, can’t get worked up about that. The poll tax was wrong (and no tax is ever *fair* though a certain amount of taxation is necessary for a civilised society) but not a crime, in England or in Scotland.

I didn’t like that policy either, but that does not make it a crime and you will no doubt remember she didn't "eject" them into the community. The policy was "CARE in the community" which was extremely short sighted as a lot of political policies are. She even expected Schizophrenia patients to self-medicate and had no plan for when they didn't with the inevitable killings as a result. Nevertheless it continued under Labour and continues to this day.

You can forget that one too! Industries all over the Western world are in decline as they are moved to countries where the costs are lower, helped on their way by anti-state aid legislation from the EU that Thatcher was only too pleased to support ... until she realised that not every member state was as keen. Blaming Thatcher for drug abuse is really desperate.

I’m no more incapable of accepting facts than you are. We just come to very different conclusions after analysing those facts. And “the rest of the country”? You forget that she won 3 elections in a row! Try to accept that.

Pot kettle black! I thought you are a woman! If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. I can give you examples of your personal attacks if you like, but I had thought of it as a frank exchange of views. You didn’t say you think you’re smart; I gleaned that for myself after reading your comments.

I replied to your points, though you probably didn’t get answers that suited you.

No, it’s based on your interpretation of the evidence. It’s a matter of opinion. Look at what happened to the NHS when Labour were in power. The NHS in its present form should not be saved. Neither party is interested in the welfare of the patient when it gets in the way of the private sector making a profit, no matter how much spin they put on it. Singling the Tories out for special contempt is blinkered.

And pulling benefits in the hope of cutting the deficit has been a total waste of time when we have spent the savings on bailing out the euro. We do need to cut the deficit, you would agree with that, wouldn’t you? It’s just a question of how the cut should be achieved?

So, the control is going the other way now? Make your mind up. Now that Scotland can do something about its grievances against Westminster the time for handwringing is over. Just have the referendum and stop the gripes. Salmond just isn’t moving fast enough for you is he?

I’ve never been in the closet. I’m a UKIP supporter, and it’s something I’ve discussed, albeit briefly, with you. You’ve commented specifically on my support for UKIP.

Delicate little flower aren’t you? She’s giving a speech before a European audience and not a back bencher in sight in the video. If you’d actually watched it you’d have known that her opinions on the subject weren’t considered mainstream. The Tory party was not eurosceptic back then except in a small handful of backbenchers. Even now nothing like the majority is (though naturally they can do the talk when election campaigning). Tory back benchers are no more militant than any others. (Strange choice of word for a Tory. It isn't usually Tories who are thought of as "millitant". And I'll listen to everyone asking for my vote. It’s the only way to make an informed choice, rather than a choice based on prejudice.

Must be a matter of opinion. As I’ve said, I didn’t agree with a lot of her policies, and the way she implemented them, but I do think she has been proved absolutely right, if ineffective, on the question of the EU.

The SNP changed its policy only when it was perfectly obvious that the euro doesn’t work and anyone could see it. I’m glad I don’t have to stake my future on its economic judgement and I wish I didn’t have to stake my future on any of the mainstream parties either – they all supported the euro and its forerunner the ERM, and we all know how that turned out. And the new “eurosystem” is not going to solve anything, which is why the US is propping up the euro with fistfuls of dollars and why Cameron is under pressure to do the same with sterling.

The lady might not have been for turning, she just got pushed aside, though not of course by the electorate. She never lost an election apart from when standing in a safe labour seat as a rookie.

 

“No such thing as society” has to be the most misrepresented political comment in recent British political history.

Look at what Labour leader, Neil Kinnock said to his party’s conference in 1988:

A government led by a Prime Minister who says that ‘There is no such thing as society.’
‘No such thing as society,’ she says.
No obligation to the community.
No sense of solidarity.
No principles of sharing or caring.
‘No such thing as society.’
No sisterhood, no brotherhood.
No neighbourhood.
No honouring other people’s mothers and fathers.
No succouring other people’s little children.
‘No such thing as society.’
No number other than one.
No person other than me.
No time other than now.
No such thing as society, just ‘me’ and ‘now.’
That is Margaret Thatcher's society. (Applause)
I tell you, you cannot run a country on the basis of ‘me’ and ‘now.’
You cannot run domestic policy on that basis, and you certainly cannot run international policy on that basis. Nowhere is that more obvious than in defence policies.
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She meant nothing of the kind. The country rejected Kinnock anyway and chose ... Thatcher. And yes, don’t worry I know that Scotland didn’t endorse that choice. I’m glad that there weren’t enough of you, even with the English left wing, to overrule the rest of us.

 

Her policies destroyed society. And helped create the economic climate which is crippling us today.

Regarding the cruel barb about weight of numbers, we can dismiss it quietly in the knowledge that Scots have dominated UK politics for years now. Unfortunately even that buffoon Cameron has some claim to it.

 

Thatcher left office 20 years ago. When will people stop using her as a scapegoat? We have the climate we have today because that's what our current political leaders have orchestrated, both on domestic and on a European level. The Labour party were in power for more than half that time and they had more than enough time to reverse policies.

And don't we know it. Bring on the referendum. Time to minimise the West Lothian issue. And Boris Johnson is a buffoon; Cameron is much more dangerous.

Happy New Year.

 

Thank God for St Margaret .
She saved this country from disaster and is essentially the only reason why this small island punches so far above its size , and remains a world power which it is unwise to under estimate .
In achieving this , -- and almost as a bonus ---- she finally broke the last vestiges of strength of Communists and Marxists and exposed the extreme socialists as more deserving of pity for their fragile hold on reality , than distaste at their absurd political views .

 

Sorry...I thought it was the lack of education and greed that allowed the fascists in...but very glad the in Scotland there are still a balance of humanity and humility and love for our fellow man.....or woman!

So for that reason.....we're almost tory free!

World power...Licking the butt of the AIPAC neo-cons doesn't constitute power!

Regards
Highlander