Discussion in '9/11' started by Shinebox, Sep 10, 2016.
Are you saying that butt plates are only used for elevator guide rails?
I've been arguing for 9/11 truth for 13 years, and my site has been up that long too.
It has the ONLY feasible explanation for total pulverization in existence. It also uses the backwards plane impact/fall sequence to show how the "no plane" theory is nonsense. In doing that it fits the sub floor explosions into the the event as well as the direction the tops of the towers went.
There is a section on the post 9/11 psyops I think you've appreciate.
Correct, so our focus on 9/11, thinking people need to know there is a problem before they will seek solution, is actually contributing to the problem. Solution is the most critical issue. There are so many problems now, that discussion on solution is really to most justified thing there is.
I haven't gone through it but CD can pulverize and Judy Wood has a theory that I can't characterize as a "feasible" explanation for total pulverization, which is based on free energy.
Governments have been engaged in psyops since well, since governments were invented. Here's an infamous quote:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." - Joseph Goebbels
Yes, CD could pulverize, if charges were well distributed enough. But all CD only drills enough holes to bring structures to the ground. Then it's either hauled and crushed, or mangled by an excavator mounted crushing jaw that gets the steel out.
At the WTC everything was shredded. That is far beyond regular CD. The "built to demolish" scenario creates a concrete container with planes of high explosive centralized and distributed in the container. When breaching pressures are attained, and the container breaks, there is a shock wave acting on the particulate masses, disassociating the particles and hard stone aggregates. The core walls had lots of that.
The aggregates and other particulate is the accelerated outwards up to near 24k fps. Everything within 60 feet that is not heavy steel gets shredded by the shrapnel effect of the aggregates and sand.
Yes. .I have looked I to j woods theory, and I agree. DEW. Is no where near developed enough for regular battlefield deployment currently. Last I studied, the DOD had a 1" diameter laser mounted on an F450 truck. Speculation then was in a year or two it would go up to 3" diameter and be mounted in a plane. That was 2006.
Woods is. " out there" and qualifies for inclusion in the ranks of women being used for treason in various ways with mind control.
Anything to distract and mislead the public from effective opposition is financed with our tax dollars and what ever is made on drugs or weapons.
Yes, and Mengele worked to create unwitting zombies that would repeat lies without batting an eye.
Our own CIA learned these techniques. It easier than we know.
Work educating state citizens towards lawful, peaceful solution is the best thing we can do.
Any evidence was what was asked for you have ZERO
Agreed. So this was a unprecedented form of CD never seen before obviously. It had to be anyway because it was after all, two of the tallest structures on the planet and not suited for a typical CD. The tallest building ever CD'd prior to 9/11 was the Singer Building (614 ft, 47 stories) in 1968.
Also agree and of course not something a crashing plane and ensuing damage and fire can do. That's a fairy tale for children.
It's an interesting theory but I don't see it as accounting for the manner in which the tower was destroyed (top down in sequence, something like every other floor blown out in the process and a disintegrating top portion).
We don't really know what secret exotic technology elements of the US government have been able to develop prior to 9/11. You're just stating one publicly known example.
That's sheer unsupported speculation. IMO she has a point about her "dustification" (as she describes it) theory. While it's completely unsupported and a bit far fetched, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the "gravitational collapse" due to fire and planes impossible lunatic theory peddled by the US government (NIST in particular). Turning two massive steel frame structures into dust within a matter of seconds would be the stuff of science fiction if it were not historical fact.
Bottom line, I really don't know how it was done but I do know it was done and I know planes and fire definitely didn't do that. My focus is not who or how at this stage, it's exposing the real criminality and treachery that permeated 9/11 in full detail.
I fixed that for you for the sake of accuracy.
And that's extremely difficult to accomplish given the ignorance and complacency of most Americans. IMO nothing is going to change unless we exercise our unalienable right (see my signature) and stop bending over to this corrupt criminal rogue government (which is not a government in any sense of the definition).
Tell me again how you think butt plates prove that a vertical wide flange or box column is an elevator guide rail and not part of the main support structure for vertical loads. Your logic is garbage. Your tactic in this discussion is to have anyone provide you with photos of the structural steel only to have you deem it as elevator guide rails without any supporting evidence from you at all.
Again, YOU need to provide an explanation on how butt plates means those structural elements could only be elevator guide rails.
I found this excerpt from this website: http://www.civilengineeringhandbook.tk/structural-steel/527-compression-splices.html (no mention of butt plates being used specifically for elevator guide rails only)
Here's more on butt plates taken from here: https://books.google.com/books?id=q...v=onepage&q=steel column "butt plate"&f=false
First, a screenshot of the text (notice that heavy bearing plate is another name for a butt plate):
Second, a screenshot of figure 7-14 mentioned in the text above:
Another question Chris. If butt plates are used to join column of different sizes, how come the structural elements you deem as butt plates in your second photo above with the red ovals are on the SIDES of the columns?
How about this text from: http://msc.aisc.org/globalassets/modern-steel/steel-interchange/2000/2000v02_si_web.pdf
No mention anywhere that butt plates are used strictly for elevator guide rails. They are used as column connection splices per all the links and information provided aboveabove. Doesn't look like you know what you're talking about at all.
must have taken lots of planning and work ... unprecedented CDs ... obviously the best ever ... amazing work ...
you obviously believe in fairy tales ... see above ^^^
how did that top portion disintegrate Bob? ...
I suspect there is a massive misunderstanding afoot....
I think you should ignore my previous reply(which I would delete, but its too late), at least until you make it clear what you meant by "deniers".
Those that deny the official story is erroneous.
They cannot prove the structural core existed that NIST and the WTC commission before it presented to the public.
Exactly right Bob. The most unique demolition in history. It's some sick theatre.
To get an idea of the variety possible with concrete encapsulating C4, and cud to cutting charges built around the interior box columns every 4 floors, the building could be steered around a great deal as it was brought down.
Security phone lines in the core and extensive phone lines in the hallway surrounding the core could easily make each floor panel it's own element in a circuit of explosive floor panels. Each 3" rebar had an inspection port every 40 feet. The maximum height of concrete forms.
Overlapping, offset vertical rebar grids that would not detonate each other to make separate vertical sections of the core walls into discrete elements of an explosive circuit are certainly possible in the engineering world.
It pretty much has to be that way, because that is what we mostly see.
Video with audible delays, (measured at 300 ms).
Have you posted an image of that style of butt plate being used in the WTC tower construction?
There are more than one kind of butt plate and the kind you are talking about were not used because the elevator guide rail supports at the WTC were not structural.
Most often they gouged and applied a single pass weld. Quick and strong enough.
The butt plate I indicate was used to align by shimming or shifting to move the support steel as close as possible to perfectly plumb and straight.
Please go to another planet to support secret methods of mass murder and betrayal of treason. Leave this one alone
Show us then Chris! Show us a link with information that states that the type of butt plate you are speaking of is used only for non-structural columns and that those types of butt plates PROVES that those columns or non-structural.
You're making this stuff up as you go in the hopes that nobody calls you on it.
The point here Chris is for you to prove that the type of butt plates you are talking about are ONLY USED for non-structural columns. You are trying to make a claim with no support whatsoever. Are we supposed to take your word for it?
How about an answer Chris? Does the above plan correctly depict your version of the supposed concrete core?
- - - Updated - - -
How about this Chris? Afraid to answer for some reason?
Sorry Chris. I can't find the type of "butt plate" you keep referring to. I can't find it ANYWHERE. All the butt plates I find are used as connections between structural members. Below is more information from various sources, none of which mention the type of butt plate you are talking about.
So where are these "non-structural" butt plates you keep referencing that are strictly used for shimming and alignment only and not for connections between members? You're getting in WAY over your head. Your nonsense is really piling up.
It had to be because the fact is that 3 steel framed high rises were literally turned to dust in seconds. A typical CD could not likely have done that to the twin towers. A typical CD might have been able to accomplish that for WTC7 because there is numerous precedent for it. You obviously believe that planes, fire and damage could do what even a typical CD can't do and for which no precedent exists.
That's just it, like I said, it would be the stuff of fairy tales if it didn't actually happen. The fairy tale is the lunacy that NIST pushed and many (such as you) believe despite the overwhelming evidence that the NIST "investigation" was nothing of the sort and filled with lies, deceptions and obfuscations.
Only a legitimate investigation could have possibly answered that. You're asking me to answer a question that a legitimate investigation should have answered but didn't even mention. If you're looking for a poster in a discussion forum to answer legitimate 9/11 questions that require a true forensic investigation, it's no wonder you just readily swallow what you're fed by the US government as true.
In 10 years you haven't shown a picture of the supposed steel framed core in the core area on 9/11.
What I describe and show is common sense in construction while I also post independently verifying evidence of the concrete core. Pictures and video of it from 9/11 and documents by certified individuals who were officially hired to study the site for safety reasons.
And, that was before guiliani took the WTC documents from the civic center room at the NYC dept. of buildings.
So he was able to examine the plans for at least the steel exoskeleton and photos of the concrete core. I don't think NYC dept. of buildings ever had plans for the concrete core. Too secret, the port authority would not release them on a FOIA.
No, you found it.
The fact is that steel core columns and a steel framed core are not ridged enough to be the core of a 200' x 200' x 1367' tall tower. Too much flex in steel. Sway, torsion and oscillation will destroy it in high winds.
The plates you found are the ones used because a cutting torch can be used to oblong the bolt holes for shifting the guide rail support and shims used to tilt it.
You are at least 9 years late in showing us a picture of the steel framed core on 9/11.
The concrete core of WTC 2.
Is this what your 30 years as a surveyor tells you?
Wrong again. They were structural members and you can't prove otherwise.
Sorry, but the diagram below proves your concrete core to be nothing but a fantasy and why you won't address it. 11/12 express elevators and 2 hallways won't fit into four 20' bays between the columns. You're done here Chris. Go away and peddle your fantasy somewhere else.
- - - Updated - - -
Right. They don't match what you describe Chris. The picture you posted shows plates on the SIDE of the column. Those aren't butt plates!
The 1990 documentary told me that Yamasaki refused to certify a steel framed core tower because of excessive flex and sway. Common sense does too. I'm a welder and fabricator as well.
I do not see the plates you describe in the picture that you didn't post.
Which doesn't matter because you have not posted an image of the supposed steel framed core on 9/11.
All your posting is manipulative, deceptive support for secret methods of mass murder.
Your plans are faked obsoletes. Does anyone believe the plans for one-time tallest buildings in the world had a title that was freehanded in pencil! Really? Note the pixelized anomalies on the left, right side of the revision table. PHOTOSHOPPED!
All your whining doesn't refute the fact that your fantasy concrete core is physically impossible. I have shown you WHY it is physically impossible and you have yet to refute it. See drawing above that shows the concrete core you propose and how it would fit into the outside ring of box columns. Your 17' thick fantasy core short axis walls effectively take up two 20' bays between the box columns. That displaces eight express elevators total, four on each long axis side. Your 12' thick long axis concrete walls displace six local elevators in the core area along with pushing the remaining fifteen (and one freight elevator) further towards the center.
Your fantasy core creates a scenario where you have no room left in the center to fit everything that was there. It's impossible. Which is why you continue to not address this issue and try and switch the topic of discussion at every turn.
I have proven above that your concrete core is utter fantasy and you've been lying through your teeth all these years to keep it alive, constantly developing changes to it as folks brought up problems and issues. I've looked at the history of you core "theory" and see the myriad of changes you've made to it based on everyone's issues they have brought up. You originally thought your concrete core was the same and all elevator access was through the center until it was proven that there was access to the express elevators from the lobby. That's when you started saying the towers were different and that WTC2 was the only one with access to the express elevators from the lobby and that it had the core "pedestal" design which you added to your site later.
Prove my drawing wrong Chris. I bet you can't.
- - - Updated - - -
How about the above Chris? Is this an accurate plan view of what you say existed in WTC2 with you core "pedestal" design?
No, it does not show the WTC2 elevator openings between the interior box columns.
No where is seen anything in the core except an occasional elevator guide rail support with nothing attached, except the interior box column supporting it. The rectangular frames are floor beams and interior box columns outside of the core. If the steel framed core existed it would be seen to the right of the floor beams and interior box columns.
But we do see massive concrete wall immediately inside the interior box columns surround the core.
The fact is, you cannot post an image of the supposed steel framed core, and all of this subterfuge is an effort to compensate for that.
America was deceived about the demise of the Twin Towers. This amounts to a secret method of mass murder being supported by you because you cannot show the core structure used in the NIST report existed.
Not to defend Gamolon but the above claim is 100% incorrect. That would be just like saying I support the "secret method of mass murder (on 9/11)" because I can't show the core structure used in the NIST report existed. Based on all the posts I have ever read written by Gamolon, he defends the OCT and the storytellers and has never shown (to my knowledge) that he raises any significant questions about the OCT and/or the storytellers. That to me means he blindly supports/defends potential mass murderers (and/or their accomplices), especially given that he has read about the tons of verifiable evidence proving the OCT is based on lies/omissions/distortions/obfuscations.
Separate names with a comma.