How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?

Looking to solve a problem is not the same as wanking to the problem's results. It is known that the solution to a problem is not making the problem bigger. Just saying.

 

So how is ignoring the Hezbollah problem going to work, exactly? They've been around since 1975. Have they gone away yet? Are they smaller or bigger since then?

 

Why do you care whether this state is 'modern' or not? Why are you focused on a date?

Presumably if Palestine gets the UN seal of approval its craved for half a century, it will be a 21st century 'modern state'.

 

No, it won't. It prospers by being a terrorist gangster regime.

 

Reread my post. Pay attention to the little 'unimportant' words there. Now try to make your answer gel with that post so that it is intelligable.

 

I focus on the modern state to avoid the error that Israel and the Palestinians have been around for thousands of years and so have been fighting each other for thousands of years. Israel is a modern state and hasn't been there for thousands of years. There have also been many empires that have ruled those lands and come and gone over thousands of years and we never give them a blink, much less a claim to those lands.

The UN is powerless, so all of the games that the Palestinians play to get the UN to declare them a state will come to nothing. The Palestinians have to get serious and pull themselves up by their bootstraps and show that they are serious about building a state. And that means negotiating with Isreal, abandoning terrorism, and start using the international aid and loans to build up their economy and make money and taxes instead of using that money to attack Israel. Once that starts the major world powers will pressure Isreal into following a two-state solution, but not before.

 

There already is a two state solution, Arabs got over 85% of the Mandate. Arabs want a three state solution they can carve it out of Jordan.

It would be stupid to give these fake 'refugees' a third state when their original ones still exist, Egypt and Syria, and as already stated they make a very nice living by periodically killing Jews and then raking in a flood of aid from the UN, Arab oil countries, and European sympathizers.

They're the best fed and cared for 'refugees' in world history now. They are never going to abandon terrorism for hire, it's way too lucrative.

 

I didn't say to ignore it. I said that violence was not a lasting solution. Read my post #275. Your post just confirms it. The PLO and PFLP were there before Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel has been killing these guys for 70+ years. It doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps that is not the solution to the problem. I'm not sure what the solution might be, but this ain't it. You can't dig your way out of a hole.

 

It doesn't work because Israelis were always prevented from finishing the job, same as the vermin now pressuring Israel now to let the poor Hamas terrorists live.

 

There are about 1.7 Billion Muslims in the world who resent America's complicity in Netanyahu's genocidal agenda and AIPAC is eager to get more American G.I.s to die for "Greater Israel".

About when do you expect "the job" to be "finished" and at what cost in American blood and resources?

 

I remember American GIs dying in Iraq defending Kuwait, dying in Afghanistan defending…not sure who, dying in Syria fighting ISIS defending…not sure who, dying in Somalia defending…not sure who, and dying in various countries in Africa…defending not sure who. They even died on American soil, murdered by Muslim Nidal Hasan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Hasan

Yet somehow, some people shed crocodile tears about American GIs who might die because of ‘Greater Israel’. I bet they believe there is a “super secret Airborne rapid deployment unit whose sole function is to help defend Israel in the event of hostilities”.

Well, the existence of such a unit was revealed for the first time in the world on this forum!

 

Don't think so. Every time the Israelis kill one crop of terrorists, the next generation makes another. Seems to me you're advocating genocide.

Terrorism generates money at least for the people at the top. It exists because it's profitable just like most other crime. The US has been fighting crime for its entire existence. Has it stopped yet? I hadn't heard.

 

Ah well then we should just do away with laws, and let people do whatever they ant to when robbed or whatever. Great point! We don't need no stinkin badges!!!

 

You're the one who wanted to show the final solution was genocide. I'm the guy that pointed out there has to be a better way. When you remove the financial reward the activity stops. Look at maryjane legalization. I'm not sure how to do that here, but the idea remains the same. I AM pretty sure that killing every last Palestinian isn't workable. Or, as far as that goes, killing every Jew seems an insurmountable task. Maybe a compromise is a good idea: Solomon, revered by both Jews and Muslims seemed to think so.

 

Now you're just talking to yourself. Okay.

Hamas hasn't attacked and massacred a bunch of unarmed civilians and gang raped and murdered them in a few months, so yes, it has stopped, much to the disappointment of Democrats everywhere.

 

Permanently? Don't think so. I think you're mistaken as to who has been talking to themselves. Temporary solutions are by their nature not permanent. Hint: the clue is in the name.

I did say they were criminals. I simply think that the Israeli (and your) solution is misguided. Stopping this instance of criminality in this manner simply assures it will happen again, much to the satisfaction of the GOP.

Not really a Democrat or Republican - I think both parties are full of the stuff that makes grass grow green and long. But I like to solve problems and this seems to be a thorny one. Killing every human being in the designated zone as you suggest might work, though I think it's excessive. OTOH, making it less profitable to attack Israel might be more effective and sustainable.

 

First I am going to state 1-3 so we do not focus or discuss this subject in reference to to you personally.

1. I am pro Israel and Israel's right to defend itself against terrorism.
2. I do not automatically think because you question Israel's right to defend itself this automatically makes you pro terrorist, anti-semitic or anti Israel,
3. I will go out on a limb and say the same 1 and 2 apply not just for me but every pro Israeli supporter on this forum although I can only speak for myself.

Next can I tell you why myself and Israeli supporters disagree with you and say what we do while again stating I can only speak for myself:

a-when people like you question Israel's military actions with an ambiguous comment such as its "misguided" you engage in puerile comment.

You and so many others are quick to condemn Israel's response but never in your response state what Israel's response should have been. In that sense you make meaningless comment. To tell someone they cannot defend themself from a death attack because its misguided is bullshit. If you think in fact the extent of force in response is unjustified, explain why and offer an alternative or the implication necessarily is-Israel should do nothing when its attacked and you know damn well Israel has a moral obligation to defend itself from extinction and terrorist attacks. So its easy to challenge Israel but people like you clearly have no alternative solutions and there is where you lose your credibility. Anyone can say something is wrong. Without offering a positive alternative you lose any purpose and credibility and simply become an arm chair second guesser far removed from the conflict and unaware of the immediate implications of war as it transpires. Its easy from a sheltered distance to second guess.

B. You then made another puerile statement with a ridiculous assumption that shows you do not understand terrorism. You stated all responding to terrorism does is make sure it happens again. Did it not dawn on you if you stay silent and do nothing when terrorists attack that is perceived as weakness and actually encourages more attacks?

See you don't get that because you never lived with terrorists. You live in a sheltered world where you do not understand the psychology of terrorism and what fuels it.

i-It is true if you take a conventional military and have it occupy a hostile civilian environment, that can breed resentment and then make it ripe for terrorists to recruit. Yes.

ii-i is not Gaza. It may apply partially to specific areas on the West Bank. Unlike you I have been to that West Bank and served as a volunteer. The terrorism preceded any Israeli military presence and that Israeli military presence incites hatred from not just Palestinians, but Hasidic Jews of Hebron who are anti Israel (who none-the-less the PA want forced out even though they were born there and have lived there for over 3,500 years) and what we call Israeli Biblical Zionists who are Jews not just from Israel but other countries who moved to the West Bank based on the belief that this land was never part of any nation but was in the past part of Judea and Somaria, Jewish nations. These Biblical Zionists make a historic claim to the land based on the Old Testament. People like you automatically assume they have no right to any land because you do not understand the indigenous land rights and history of the West Bank, Jordan and Israel and simply believe the UN based on resolutions from anti Israeli Middle East nations have a right to all of the West Bank. You even use the word "occupy" outside its correct legal definition. In law, you can't "occupy" a land that was never a nation. You can physically rule it but its not occupation. There is a legal distinction.

Next I doubt you are aware that land title on the West Bank is complex. In factthe land was physically occupied by Christians, Muslims and Jews born there. The Ottoman Empire at one point took over where Jordan, Israel and the West Bank are and any land rights were given to friends of the ruler of the Ottman Empire. No one owned land they either squatted on it or rented it. There was much confusion but all three peoples purchased actual land rights from Ottoman Empire absentee owners.

The land titles were then registered for the West Bank in an office but Arafat the then leader of the PLO decided to blow up that office because it showed most of the land was seized illegally by Muslim squatters who came to the West Bank and took that land from actual Muslims born on the West Bank when Britain obtained a mandate to create a Jewish state where Jordan, Israel and the West Bank were. Britain lied and seized 80 to 90% of the land and turned it into a Jew free Palestinian state of Jordan to placate Prince Faisal who helped them defeat the Ottoman Empire in WW1. It also pacified him by placing one of his sons as its King, another of his sons as the King of "Iraq". They did this to calm Faisal down as France under the Picot agreement lied to Faisal and seized Syria and Lebanon and turned them into French puppet states contrary to the original plan to turn all of the rest of the Middle East into a Muslim country,

Today's land disputes on the West Bank deal with destroyed land titles from the Ottoman Empire, Jordanian, Israeli municipal and federal law, as well as the laws of the PA in their areas.

Those disputes were caused by the French and British who deliberately created artificial colonial borders forcing feuding Muslim factions into the same countries so they would fight and the French and British could then justify their presence.

Israel in its original form would have had no need for a military. It would have become more like Switzerland or Luxembourg or Andorra or San Marino in the sense Muslims would continue to travel through it. Because Muslims do not believe under Sharia law Jews can own land or have a country, to get around that, Israel would have been a nation to the rest of the world but Muslim countries could have defined it as a protectorate and so created a fiction it was still Muslim just reserved to protect Jews.

I doubt you know or understand any of that. No one your generation does.

Gaza is in fact two things, one was and is a city that had over 20,000 indigenous Jews who were attacked and forced out. Gaza Strip was created by Nasser of Egypt in the early 50's to imprison Palestinians to punish them for not helping push out or kill of all the Jews who started Israel.

The Arab League nations in 1948 who attacked the Jews who lived in the West Bank, Gaza City and where pre 1967 Israel was in an open war to extinguish them. There was no talk of a Palestinian nation. In fact it was ridiculed by Palestinian nationals who started their modern war against Jews in the Middle East as part of a rebellion against Britain and France for creating the puppet kingdoms they did.

This nationalist movement was started by the Mufti of Jerusalem who was an open Nazi and moved to Nazi Germany and lived in a stolen Jewish home and was a principle advocate of genocide who convinced Heinrich Himmler and Adolph Eichmann to use zyclon gas to more quickly wipe out Jews and saw an alliance with Hitler as beneficial to not only ridding the Mid East of the British and French but Jews as well.

The terrorism you talk of just does not go away if you ignore it and to suggest it does is just out and out stupid. Terrorists understand only one thing-kill or be killed. Their m.o. is to kill and torture anyone to instill fear so they can conquer and rule. No they are not rational and suddenly stop when you don't respond or only commit terrorism because the IDF attacks them. That is just absolute bullshit.

 

The thread starter is a premises someone in a sheltered environment who does not understand terrorism started.

Conflict does not have a magical solution. It has to come about by disarming terrorists first and foremost so they can not attack anyone and dominate political discourse. Then an alternative non violent dialogue must arise which might take years to arrive at a series of directives that need to separate the conflicted opponents and give them anywhere from 10 to 50 years to defuse without fear of war before you can them move to the next stage of resolution.

Right now the majority of Israelis want a peaceful solution. They do not believe its possible.

Right now the majority of the people in the Middle East who are Muslim do NOT READ/ As a result they can not critically analyze and see more than one possible solution to anything. They base their solution on what their Mullah or Imam tells them. The prevalent belief in the Middle East Islamic world is that based on Sharia law Jews are dhimmi or kafir-this means they are inferior-it means they can not have their legal rights of Muslims including owning land let alone having a nation. So Israel is considered a religious abomination and must be destroyed but it does not end there-the belief of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran and the Houthis and over 400 other Islamic terror cells is that not only the Jewish state must be eradicated and turned into a Muslim nation but Jews across the world should be wiped out in a religious war.

The next generation who side and march with Hamas have no clue their belief system would have them kill their supposed sympathetic anti Israeli allies as quickly as they want to kill Jews for the same reasons-they are considered idiots, dupes, immoral, weak, morally decayed fools to be used and then at the appropriate time discarded.

This next generation that is so quick to say Israel should do nothing and/or that a non religious state be created in Israel have no clue that the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., stand for a Muslim caliphate replacing Jordan, the West Bank and Israel all being amalgamated in the first phase with further amalgamation with Lebanon and Syria and then all other Sunni states and then a spread to the rest of Asia and Africa and then finally Europe and the Americas.

This is not about some idiot simplistic concept Jews who are Zionists create all the world's problems and if those damn Jews did not insist on a country the Middle East would be peaceful.

The Middle East under Islamic sharia law nations has never been peaceful. Their dispute with Jews in Israel is one of literally thousands. More Muslims are killed by fellow Muslims than by the IDF because of internal disputes whether they be religious (whose version of Islam is better) or over inter-family disputes.

These inter-family disputes and inter-Muslim faith disputes cause Muslims of the Middle East to feud with one another over land, political control, water, on and on. It causes families to marry first cousins becasue of disputes and distrust of neighbours. That in turn causes major medical issues.

https://intellectualtakeout.org/201...roblem-and-people-dont-want-to-talk-about-it/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/inbreeding-by-country

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html

https://www.dw.com/en/epidemic-deme...he,lower literacy rates, will be in their 70s.


There are no democratic traditions or institutions in the Middle East other than in Israel. Sharia law is usually implemented by military regimes that do not permit free speech.

Most people in the Middle East can not read. In 2019 the UN and international agencies estimated 79% of the Arab world still was illiterate.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140210-alecso-report-97-million-illiterates-in-arab-countries/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/literacy-rate-by-country

It should be noted that Palestinians have a 10% illiteracy rate, the lowest.

That low literacy rate means they are more likely to challenge and question which is why other Arab countries openly hate and do not trust them and why they are ruled by an iron fist by a mix of violent terror, Muslim fundamentalism, violence and fascism paying homage to this day to Hitler in their goose steep and salute.

No this has nothing to do with weapons. This has to do with a complex conflict between Israel which is in a first world state, and the surrounding countries still in a third world or fourth world state.

The Arab world today is where say Europe was when they were burning witches at the stake. Imagine i f you were a modern country living next door to England or France still at that stage of development.

That is what is happening. We have incompatible East and West cultures clashing and blaming it on Jews for being Zionist colonialists is horseshit. The Zionists created their ideology to escape colonialism and return back to Jewish concepts of equality where the state would be used to assure never again would it be used to kill and torture Jews as it was in Muslim and Christian states, but at the same time respect the rights of non Jews.

Unlike Sharia law or past traditional Christian law, non Jews have never been prohibited in Israel from owning land, attending their own religious courts to decide family law issues, voting, attending the same hospitals, being educated, having Judges appointed, and having politicians elected to represent them.

Israel is not perfect but offers all the rights to its non Jewish citizens no Muslim country offers in the Middle East.

Finally, Israel faces within its own Ultra Orthodox Jewish community the same issues it has with fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Christians. These issues sound religious in nature but in fact deal with cultural disputes regarding homosexuality, military service, working, equality of women.

In Israel all citizens face job barriers if they do not serve in the military in the sense that they will not have security clearance to work certain jobs.

Many Ultra Orthodox Jews do not recognize the right of Israel to exist but live off of its welfare system and do not work. Many Muslim or Arab Israelis have served bravely in the IDF.

Israel became a refugee haven for the Bahaii people and gays escaping persecution from Muslim countries. It has issues with its Beduin like all other Middle East countries not over religion but because of what is called creeping urbanization which makes it harder and harder for Beduins to live their nomadic lives.

The issue are multi-level and inter-connected and are not simplistc Jew v.s.Muslim or Palestinian v. Israeli.

The reality is the best Israel can do is demilitarize the immediate threats and wait for Muslim society to slowly evolve past its current state.

Progressive Muslims who recognize Israel's right to exist have for the most part been forced out of Palestinian and Arab nations to the West. They do speak out but ironically are drowned out by extremist Muslims cheered on by so called progressive Westerners who do not understand they have alienated and worked against such Progressive Muslims who are our best hope to bridge the cultural caps and are deeply supported by Jews, Israelis and the older generations who have lived in or fought terrorism or war or escaped conflict zones.

Peace networks are hurt everytime terrorists can recruit and coerce idiots who make no effort to find out what terrorism is or what the actual positions of Hamas, Hezbollah are and think if you ignore them, poof they go away.

 

I do not question Israel's right to defend itself against criminals. Hamas strikes me as criminal in this instance. I do question the effectivity of its method, which seem to me to guarantee a recurrence.

I do not question Israel's right to defend itself. I question the method, an entirely different thing.

Speak for yourself. The number of people who agree with you adds nothing to your argument's weight. Lots of people are Chinese style Communists. Doesn't mean they're the best system.

Edited for clarity.

 

When you say... "I do not question Israel's right to defend itself. I question the method, an entirely different thing." it most certainly is the same thing because you deliberately refuse to provide "methods" that are acceptable and that omission creates necessarily a sweeping blanket denial of the methods Israel uses.

One of the glaring problems with the above tactic is its been overused. People like you who make the statement you do have never been in the theatre of conflict with terrorists in close quarters. You have zero clue and from an arm chair far removed perspective you criticize without specifics so its meaningless.

Next your criticism ignores the methods Israel chooses to try prevent deaths of civilians and how Israel's methods are not causing the deaths but Hamas's decision to place civilians in a position to be shot and killed.

You do not get that because you have no clue what Hamas does on the ground and no the IDF can not remain silent as Hamas uses Gaza civilians as shields to die to kill Israeli civilians to die.

Therein lies the absurdity of your claim. It can't fathom that if Israel does not rid Gaza of Hamas even more Gaza civilians will die in the long term than the short term tragedy of deaths on both sides as the IDF tries once and for all to liberate BOTH Gaza and Israeli citizens of Hamas.

Finally I made it clear I speak for myself and I can with confidence say you lecturing Israel on what it can not do but omit stating what they can do to defend themselves against Hamas is insulting to not just Israelis but many people.

Until you have the intellectual integrity and honesty to complete your criticism its meaningless. Don't pose as if you are an expert on appropriate counter terrorist measures. You clearly are not.

Yah I was there. Yes I witnessed terrorism and its aftermath. The world is full of people like you who think they know better. The IDF soldiers I know, the Israelis I know and the Palestinians I know all reject Hamas, the 400 or so other Palestinian terror cells, the PA, Hezbollah, Iran. They do not want violence or the death of anyone. You seem to think there are a range of methods to use...so state them and your sources.

Me? Do I come on here posing as an expert. I repeat it again-I washed streets. I did basic things that would make you vomit. That is my expertise. I have always stated, every death on either side is a failure BUT the difference is I do not pretend one can contain terrorism when terrorists shoot from behind civilians in closed quarters.

Hamas continues as we speak to use its civilians as shields and its leader dresses as a woman and hides in Gaza as one. He will be found.

I also have news for you. Hezbollah and Hamas would kill you quicker than they would me if they had the opportunity. That you do not get.

 

The 'short term tragedies'. as you call them are permanent to the people they happen to. What school where you taught in that you didn't learn that?

Actually, you didn't make that clear anywhere. Nor was I 'lecturing Israel'. I waas making a comment that this particular method doesn't work, while you appeared to be advocating genocide.

Saying that a method isn't working is a complete criticism. The fact it hasn't worked over the course of 50+ years is proof of concept. Got it?

So you know people who might have ideas to spark a viable long-term peace. But you reject that in favor of long-term mass violence. Good to know.

As I said before, finding Hamas' leader changes nothing. there will be another org behind him absorbing his assets, as Hamas absorbed those of the PFLP and PLO. There is a profit motive to terrorism at the top tier. Stop the profit, stop the terror.

You have no positive data to support this claim. Now you're just making stuff up.

 

I agree....

I was born and lived in Canada essentially all of my life except for spending a year and a half in Ecuador.

You are correct that I do not understand terrorism but........

I can understand a group of people who own BigMedia using the influence that they have to make matters worse.......

as opposed to improving the situation in the Middle East.

For example....... if somebody in relatively Not so Collosal media decided to begin a reality film series that centres around a court case that a high profile

lawyer such as Alan Dershowitz got interested in..........

the number of people who could be inspired to view this whole situation different within six months to a year could shock us.

I personally believe that if Trump wins the USA election a few weeks from now.......

we are going to see a clean up of corruption at high levels that will astound us.

Now that anybody with a good phone.... and a good film editing program on their computer can do a pretty good film........ we are about to see the truth come out on all topics......

I predict that.... for just one example....... the incidence of cancer killing people will be dramatically reduced within five years. ... .and most of the important reasons will be that treatments that were

suppressed by BigMedia..... will come out through Whistleblowers. This principle applies to diplomacy as well.


Are an influential segment of trillionaires terrified of TRUMP?

This is significantly an over simplification but essentially The Eruv Rav are a group of people who are so wealthy that they tend to take Neo-Malthusianism Theory and Economic Philosophy seriously.

Sir Winston Churchill termed them The High Cabal.........

Lord Balfour himself would have wanted Israel to be much, much, much, much larger than the High Cabal wanted. The high cabal represented a shocking number of aristocrats who were surprisingly pro- Hitler and... they wanted the little nation of Israel to be impossible to defend..... and it was...... but a force beyond logic or probability intervened and kept the nation of Israel strong and stable.




?
Are an influential percentage of Trillionaires really scared of Trump?

1. 
   No
   3 vote(s)
   60.0%
2. *
   yes
   2 vote(s)
   40.0%
3. 
   I sure do hope not?????!!!!!
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. 
   I would hope so????!!!!!
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%

Change Your Vote

 

Personally... I believe that "The Joy of the LORD" is the key to unleashing MIRACLES for nine point four million Israelis........

and a serious move toward OBEYING the implications of Ezekiel chapters forty to forty eight will set in motion

Actual Miracles for all nine point four million Israelis at a level that will astonish all eight billion of who will soon have access to news stories that

will be covering the astonishing events that will soon be happening in Israel.


The Ezekiel Temple Complex vs The Gihon Spring Third Jewish Temple?

In the opening post of this discussion @AboveAlpha did a great job of explaining how to stop the rockets from landing on the streets of Sderot.........

BUT WHAT I HAVE IN MIND IS TO STOP ROCKETS FROM EVEN BEING SHOT INTO THE AIR IN THE DIRECTION OF SDEROT..... OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!

THE KEY COULD BE TO GET MUSLIMS TO BELIEVE IN THE IDEAS ON SHALOM BETWEEN MUSLIMS WITH JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT IS THERE IN THEIR OWN KORAN.......

God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land in English, Hebrew and Arabic?

....