I am an abortion consequentialist, and if you're smart, you are too

I have not assigned anyone a position here. You are pro-abortion are you not? You don't want protection for the unborn do I have that right? So how have I assigned you that position?

You can't tell the difference because you don't even value life…so why should you? LOL You can't see good because your so focused on the bad….its all the same for you.

 

All complete speculation and completely unmeasurable.

So now you're protecting women from making decisions they may regret? Sounds like you're coddling people to me. Don't you oppose government coddling?

Families ripped apart? Care to give us some statistics on how many families are "ripped apart" by abortion? While you're at it, why don't you define just what you mean by "ripped apart".

You cannot say that over 50 million unborn children would be alive today with any degree of accuracy. Some of those women would have still had abortions, only they would have been unsafe ones. Going to a licensed abortion doctor is not the only way to have an abortion. It's not brain surgery.

Nobody is making women suffer silently, nor where they forced into having the abortion in the first place. While I don't doubt that some women end up feeling some type of remorse over having an abortion, but I'm not sure how you plan to get rid of someone having regrets over a decision they've made in the past. I'm pretty sure everyone has that regardless of abortion.

But the biggest whopper of them all, "society would value life in a different way" is deserving of some LMAO's on my part. Can you explain why and how banning abortion would change our society's valuation of life? It's much more logical to assume that our abortion policy is because of our valuation of life, not the cause of it.

 

The process of creating a human is a continuum. There are points along the process that you can point to and say for certain (according to biological science) that no living human exists. (sperm, egg, and zygote for example)

There are points along the continuum where a "living human" can be said to exist (a week before birth for example).

Then there is the grey area in the middle. This is where most of the legitimate debate comes from.

IMO - significant brain function is the minimum requirement needed to substantiate the claim that a living human exists. This can be accurately measured with a good deal of precision relative to the continuum.

Back to you .. at what point along the continuum do you think a living human exists and why ?

 

You constantly do. In our past conversations, you tried through multiple posts to assign me the position of believing rape is okay. You've told others they must be for infanticide. You even try, as many pro-lifers do, to say that people who are pro-choice like abortion, celebrate it even, and want more of them. Even in your reply here, you're trying to tell me I don't value life. You tell me I can't see good because good and bad are all the same for me, which I find to be ironic because it's actually you who has trouble separating one thing from another. After reading many of your posts on here, I can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that though I am pro-choice, I value life more than you do.

 

The abortion debate, or ANY debate, is about supporting your position. Resorting to demonizing the opposition ALWAYS means you are unable to do that. Once you are reduced to insults in all caps, it's obvious you have nothing.

 

Killing all people in poverty seems to be more of a stance that pro-lifers would seem to subconsciously desire, than pro-choicers would.

Pro-lifers care about life more before it's born than afterwards usually.

 

i am personally a free choice person on this, but you happen to offend people with how your saying it. past that now because it's already been said. what i find is that this is more of a morality issue and nobody likes other people to press their morals onto you, now i know we've all shut the door on the salesmen or hung up the phone on a telemarketer. so when people argue this point with me and i mention that it's a moral issue and they reply, "no, it's murder!" i have two replies ready, the first is that in all respects, murder is a moral issue. it's also so accepted by members of society that it's one of the few morals we can agree on. but abortion doesn't kill anybody who has a past, might have a future, but has no past. the second reply is more of a way of shrugging off the question. i reply, "hey, i didn't say pressing morals onto people is a bad thing! so go right ahead and put morals into legislature, just as long as their my morals." oh and sorry if this seems juvenile. i'm new at politics but i'll always accept constructive criticism. go ahead and criticize

 

Junkieturtle said,

Are you saying there are no women that regret their abortions? Coddling….well, no more like trying to protect the unborn will is slaughtered.

How do you think a father, boyfriend feels when their significant other kills their child behind their back?
How many sisters and brothers have lost siblings due to abortion? Grandmas and Grandpas? …..wiping out generations.

Are you saying that had abortion been illegal…all 50 million mothers would have used coat hangers? LMAO
WEll if you knew what you were taking about you would know that even PP stated that before abortion was legalized the majority went to doctors in clinics. And if you look up abortion deaths before Roe….its off the chart low.

Why does your side say abortion is a tough decision and that women don't make the decision easily? That implies it is wrong…that really it is immoral. If it isn't human? Isn't viable? Isn't a person….what makes it so tough? I think you know…and most women know. It is killing a living human being. It is immoral or it would be more openly talked about…but most women who have abortions hide it. Why? It is one of the most performed surgical procedure in the United States…yet people don't talk about it on a personal level.Do you ever hear…Hey I can't have lunch next Monday cause I have to have an abortion?

That is most ridiculous question I have ever head….I won't even dignify it with a response….only to say if you have to ask……No I can't even say what I want…would be against the rules.

 

That's not at all what I was saying, and I even mentioned later in that post that I was sure there are some women who do end up regretting their decision.

You're tugging at my heartstrings here, but you still haven't shown, at all, how abortion rips families apart.

No, I wasn't saying that. Go back and read my post. Then read it again for good measure.

Off the charts low you say? Tell me, without centralized locations where women had abortions, how did they measure how many abortions where taking place? How accurate are those "charts"?

Tell me, when a family is purchasing a home, and the decision they make about getting a mortgage isn't "easy", does that make a mortgage immoral too? When a family is deciding whether one of the adults should take a job that requires the family to move, and it's not an easy decision, does that make moving immoral? I find it hilarious that you equate a decision being difficult to make with that decision being immoral.

Do women talk about when they had a pap smear? Do they talk about when they had a hysterectomy or a mastectomy? I'm sure they do, but not with everyone. Again, you're grasping here, and it's not even at straws, it's at a place that two years ago might have a had a straw in it, but we can't be certain.

You didn't answer the question? HA! It must be because you know abortion is moral but you won't admit it! HA! (see how annoying reaching ridiculous conclusions can be?)

But, I have still noted that you did not answer the question.

 

A few women regret their abortions, most feel relief. A few women regret having given birth. Regret is simply a part of life, we cannot know what our lives would have been had we made different choices.

I think a prospective father and/or boyfriend usually feels relief when a woman chooses ABORTION. A few feel anger because they are not in control. Who would discuss abortion with siblings of the aborted? That's crazy. It doesn't need to be discussed with prospective grandparents either, unless the woman is young enough to need their support. No generation has been wiped out, the evidence is obvious that there are plenty of people on the planet.

Yes, the abortion rate was about the same before RvW as afterward.

Women don't talk about abortion because it's a private personal decision. Women also don't talk about abortion because they don't want to arouse the wrath of people like you.

Please explain how criminalizing abortion would change society's view of the value of life. Decriminalizing it didn't change anything.

 

NCstudent said,

Then you champion abortion and want no legal protection for the unborn. You are pro-abortion.


"what i find is that this is more of a morality issue and nobody likes other people to press their morals onto you, now i know we've all shut the door on the salesmen or hung up the phone on a telemarketer. so when people argue this point with me and i mention that it's a moral issue and they reply, "no, it's murder!" i have two replies ready, the first is that in all respects, murder is a moral issue. it's also so accepted by members of society that it's one of the few morals we can agree on. but abortion doesn't kill anybody who has a past, might have a future, but has no past. the second reply is more of a way of shrugging off the question. i reply, "hey, i didn't say pressing morals onto people is a bad thing! so go right ahead and put morals into legislature, just as long as their my morals." oh and sorry if this seems juvenile. i'm new at politics but i'll always accept constructive criticism. go ahead and criticize[/QUOTE]

Our government presses their morals expressed by society at the time on its people. Slavery was once legal, sodomy was once illegal….abortion was once illegal. Abortion is still considered immoral but legal…so that women, mothers can kill their babies and not have to step up to the plate and account for a pregnancy that happened because of something they did. Abortion solves problems at the expense of the life already started. There is nothing potential about that life. If left alone it would grow….and be born….JUST LIKE YOU DID. And here ya are able to express your feelings about the subject…thanks TO YOUR MOTHER…WHO GAVE YOU LIFE.

 

OKgrannie said,

How the hell do you know that? How on earth can you say something so absolutely ridiculous and off the wall that its a joke. Millions and millions and millions around the world get abortions since 1973 and before that and A FEW A FEW A FEW FEEL BAD? PLEASE……OH HOW I WISH THIS WERE THE BASEMENT. BUT ITS NOT SO I HAVE TO PLAY NICE WITH YOU. AND YOU CAN CONTINUE ON SAYING THESE THINGS JUST TO IRRATE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE TRUTH AND SPEAK OUT ON IT. YOU HAVE NEVER HAD AN ABORITON…YET YOU SIT THERE ON YOUR HIGH HORSE AND PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD THEM FEEL. NO BIG DEAL EH GRANNIE? JUST COLLATERAL DAMAGE…..

A FEW FEEL BAD. I have never heard something so stupid in my life. Regrets are a part of life……sure….like i regret ever having read your posts on all the different sites you travel around too posting your pro-death, abortion sacrifice towards pro-lifers. You make the rounds thats for sure.

KILLING THE ACTUAL ACT DONE…AND THE THOUGHT MAKES YOUR SIDE EXCITED…CHILD SACRIFICE…..YEA….., thats the position. AGAIN A FEW FEEL ANGER…….YOU HAVE NO CLUE……NONE…….ZIPPO…..

LORD THANK YOU THAT I DO NOT HAVE PEOPLE IN MY LIFE THAT SPEW HATRED LIKE GRANNIES WORLDVIEW DOES.

HONESTY SOMETHING THAT YOUR SIDE DOES NOT EMBRACE. ABORTION KILLS A LIVING HUMAN…AND YOU CAN'T EVEN BRING YOURSELF TO SAY IT. IT KILLS….TRY IT GRANNIE. SAY….'IT KILLS A LIVING HUMAN"…BUT THEN WAIT…..YOU KNOW THAT AND YOUR STILL COOL ABOUT IT. YIPEEEE

OR TRY SAYING WHAT YOU REALLY THINK….ABORTION AS CHILD SACRIFICE IS GOOD, GOOD THING, HAPPY THING, SPLENDID, WONDERFUL, SPECTACULAR, BEAUTIFUL, GORGEOUS, COOL, ENLIGHTENING, INVIGORATING….help me here….what else?

HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN ABORTION GRANNIE? WOULD YOU KNOW WHAT BEING ON THE FRONT LINES IN A WAR WOULD FEEL LIKE? OR TO HAVE KILLED A CHILD YOU ONCE CARRIED?

NO…..YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING. BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS……HAVING BEEN THERE MYSELF AND FROM TALKING TO POST ABORTIVE WOMEN THROUGH MY WORK OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS……WOMEN DO NOT TALK ABOUT ABORTION BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THEY KILLED THIER CHILD. THEY SUFFER SILENTLY…NOT EVEN TELLING CLOSE FAMILY RELATIVES AND FRIENDS…NOT ONLY BECAUSE ITS PERSONAL….ITS A PERSONAL DECISION THAT KILLED A HUMAN BEING….BUT BECAUSE THEY HATE THEMSELVES FOR DOING IT.

THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE….

Your worldview is so out of touch with compassion…..you wouldn't get it.

 

Junkieturtle said,

I have always said…statistics even on Guttmaucher are inaccurate. They have no way of knowing what they report. Take late term abortion….in many places its illegal…but we know it goes on because clinics are exposed and shut down. Who would report doing late term or getting one if its illegal? If something goes wrong with a botched abortion and the woman dies, is injured during the procedure…it is not made public…and most times it is settled because the woman does not want her name in public records. Why? Because of the nature of the act….she got hurt while killing a human being. Its not like a car accident or any other medical malpractice case….abortion is different…it labels…and women even though its one of the most common surgical procedures….DO NOT WANT PEOPLE KNOWING THEY DID IT…FOR ALL THE MOST OBVIOUS REASONS. And if its so widely practiced…so widely accepted as Grannie maintains…and most people in America love abortion like she does….then women would have no problem admitting they had one done…even if they were hurt. ITS THE NATURE OF WHAT IS DONE….ABORTION THE ACT OF KILLING.
Cases are settled every day….you just don't hear about them. LIME 5 is a book that exposed this…and the author sites the exact case number that you could investigate. He could have used names in the book but to protect the woman he left them out. But if one wanted to do it…they could look up the case and get all the information. He could write a book every year exposing the thousands of cases that were botched…the clinics that when investigated showed that they did not even meet the minimum safely standards as a vet clinic.

Well….this was stupid….really…come on. You are comparing two acts……ONE KILLS, THE OTHER DOES NOT. So while people I am sure are sorta private about their finances….it does not compare to the act of abortion or killing. Come on…you can't see and acknowledge that? Your example is hilarious on every levels. Abortion kills……abortion kills…….moving out of town does not kill…changing jobs do not kill. LMAO

A pap smear does not kill. But yes women do talk about going to get them done. And yes….many women do share their cancer stories….especially to help women who are going through it…or have had one done. AGain this does not kill anyone. Families usually know when one of their own gets a mastectomy….again its not killing. Julliana Rancik on television just got one done and is now sharing her story. You don't see that of a celebrity who got abortions or multiple abortions do you? How many celebs do you think abort each year? Yet its a subject that even television programs and movies don't address. Why? Do I really have to tell you?

And what was that question?

 

I know it's hard to read the reports of women's actual feelings and reactions, but it's a little more accurate than just assuming every woman feels the way you do. You do know where the caps lock key is, don't you?

Nobody is forcing you to read my posts. On any site. I have never been banned from any site I have posted on.

Maybe you should reread your own posts. Try it without the caps lock.

It's just amazing what you know about me....without knowing anything at all.

 

So if the statistics aren't correct, why were you trying to tell me that very few women had abortions before Roe? Where you being dishonest?

You did not make the distinction. You simply assumed that because abortion may be a hard decision for some women, that it automatically makes it immoral. A decision being hard to make has nothing to do with something being moral or immoral.

Eight Women Share their Abortion Stories

This was the first link after a quick web search. I imagine a longer one would yield even more.

The question was:

 

Junkieturtle said,

Knowing if someone is found dead in their home by the police who would have to be called if a woman died this way…….and all the women who have had abortions feelings are two different things. If you check out the American Census Records…..on deaths…..not many deaths by coat hangers on record.

Society dictates what is moral and while abortion is legal…it is still considered immoral…no one admits having one, it certainly is taboo in movies and television shows…..it is not talked about for some reason. One of the most performed surgeries in the country and no one addressed it…well except PP who wants it around because it pays the bills and salaries.


Eight Women Share their Abortion Stories

Bravo eight women out of how many had abortions last year?

This is the first paragraph.

"One out of three women will have an abortion by the time she’s 45. Yet women don’t discuss how they decided to end a pregnancy—or not; how it felt and how they recovered, physically and emotionally; how they look back on their choice as time passes. There are great resources that can help women navigate this choice: pregnancyoptions.info can guide you through parenting, adoption and abortion decisions; prochoice.org can refer you to a safe provider; NARAL’s state map shows what laws affect abortion access in your area; Exhale offers after-abortion counseling; and imnotsorry.net invites women to share their positive experiences with abortion."

What pops out is that WOMAN WON'T DISCUSS. AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE WOMEN WHO REGRET THEIR ABORTIONS BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE.

If women were not embarrassed and ashamed…..they would talk about it. This article is targeting young girls. I did not regret my abortion until over twenty five years later. YOU NEVER FORGET….THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS WITH YOU….there is healing and forgiveness…but this is one thing you can't prove and you know nothing about…..the women that have regrets.

 

OKgrannie said,

You have no way and should not have assumed what you did. It was not accurate and you know it. The cap key is wonderful.

Nor is anyone forcing you to read mine…and I have always used the cap key like I am doing. And you are a left wing radical humanist…so your worldview is the majority on these sites. You fit in to a tea. But if you hold a worldview like mine….you are watched more…they wait until you make a mistake and then your gone. Most sites are liberal cess pools of liberalism and people who reject God. I never use profanity…but I use pro-abort to describe anyone who is pro-choice. Beliefnet and Debatepolitics…both warned me not to use it or else. I used it.
You suck up…and kiss behinds….so you fit in these sites perfectly.





Maybe you should reread your own posts. Try it without the caps lock.




It's just amazing what you know about me....without knowing anything at all.[/QUOTE]

 

Junkieturtle said,

Those would have to be reported and the statistic would be more accurate.

No its not. One of you pro-aborts here on this forum said…..ITS A HARD DECISION. What is so hard about it, if your killing nothing? I work in this field and go out purposely talking about it. It is part of my testimony. I have known women who have had abortions…personal friends that kept it hidden for years because they did not want anyone to know. They knew what they did, as most women know in their hearts it is wrong…but do it anyway because they feel trapped…and feel there is no option. They know its immoral but do it anyway and will take what comes with it just to get rid of the problem.

I talk about it because I hope more women will admit to what they did and share their feelings. It is hard to keep a secret like this when it is tearing you apart. ARe you keeping your abortion secret? LOL

That is a no brainer. I do not believe we are a Christian nation…so the poll is not surprising. But there has never been a nationwide poll…I certainly have never taken a poll on anything…not abortion, politics….nothing. I don't know anyone who has. As I said…I don't lend much credibility to polls…especially done by the pro-aborts.

The article you posted started with reasons why women don't come forward…the sadness and regret. I am not saying that there are only 8….but 8 is 8 come on. I could go around and find 8 women that regret their abortions. Then what would you say to me?

And I believe probably most the country is against abortion but want it legal because should they need it they want it there. We are a country that does not value life…we celebrate the deviant and we are materialistic. The majority of women getting abortions claim they are Christians…are they by Biblical standards….who knows. They certainly are not displaying Godly behavior by killing. I certainly did not. I was a Christian in name only….anyone can say it…but it is harder to live it….and that is what matters. No Christian who was walking righteously would get an abortion…..they would not be having sex outside marriage either.

 

My original point was, you said that very few abortions occurred pre-Roe, and then in the next post said the statistics that measured it weren't even accurate.
So, in light of that, how are you citing statistics in defense of your position when you admit the inaccuracy of those statistics?

Well, I am a man, so no.

What you do is fine. I don't find anything wrong with encouraging women not to get abortions. What bothers me is when you make the jump from that to demonizing people who do, and even those who haven't but simply agree that it should be the woman's choice. We are in agreement that abortion is a hard decision, but I completely disagree that it's hard because it's immoral. Just because some women may end up with guilt due to their choice doesn't equal immorality. A person can feel just as guilty about the effects of a what you would consider to be a moral choice. Life isn't so simple that something you consider moral never produces guilt or regret, and that only immoral things do.

I don't place much emphasis on polls either, but my point was that the nation is pretty split on this. It's not a minority community pushing for abortion rights, it's an issue that divides the nation across relatively equal lines.

I would say the same as you did, but you were trying to say that women never talk about it because it's an immoral choice, without considering the fact that some women probably don't talk about it because they would be castigated by the pro-life section of society. Hiding a personal choice from the world is hardly dependent upon that choice being an immoral one.

Your religion is relevant to you alone, not to others, even if they claim to be of the same faith as you. That's really a separate issue for the religious community, not the abortion debate. I do agree that our society is overly materialistic though I would disagree on your view that our society does not value life.

 

Junkieturtle said,

On record in the government files on this…the Census of deaths occurring…abortion by coat hanger is low. Even Planned Parenthood said it was low that most abortions were performed in doctors offices. I do not put much weight on statistics. But the Census would be pretty accurate…because all deaths have to be reported. All abortions do not have to be reported and are not.

I knew you were a man….
My point here….so you have no idea how it feels…to be pregnant….to get an abortion….the feeling before the feelings after. Nor do the woman here defending abortion as being something great….while they have never had one either. You can talk all you want to people…read all sorts of literature….educate yourself on everything related to this…..and you still would not know what I am talking about.

Who have a demonized here who has had an abortion? LOL As far as I know….no one but ME has admitted to having one. That ought to tell ya something right there. Your stats should reveal that at least there should be someone other than me who has had one. And there might be someone here…who has had one…but won't come out of the closet on it. I work with post abortive women for crying out loud. I try to help them. I have never demonized a woman….who has had one. But on the other hand…I don't walk around on eggshells either. The truth is they killed their living human child. There is hope however after abortion. I demonize the position that people take for wanting abortion legal. I think most pro-aborts are hypocrites….they know (*)(*)(*)(*) well it is immoral…and wrong…but want the option open anyway. They say….abortion legal because its the woman's body….then turn around and say……no abortion after 22 weeks, 221/2 weeks, 24, 25, who knows…..they enslave the woman her rights to her own body. This is hypocritical.

I have no clue how the nation is on this or how they would vote….we have no way of even beginning to answer this one. I do not believe we are a Christian nation any longer. We are secular and a great many people deny God and even if they accept there is a God don't live like there is one. They put themselves in the place of God….and look at us because of it. We should not be forced to redistribute our wealth….we should want to give…from the heart. We are a nation of socialists who don't' have drive…and gumption and are content to take handouts and sit at home harboring the attitude…THE GOVERNMENT OWES ME. No one steps up to the plate and takes responsibility for their actions….lets blame others….for the messes WE DO. Our politicians do not grap or understand the Constitution…and most on both sides of the aisle are corrupt. "We the People"…………fading away unless we stand up and hold our leaders accountable to what the Founders ideals were for this once great country. We are a mess……in debth we can never hope of paying off because we now are socialists and have to support not only ourselves but any illegal coming across our borders. We are goin down.
And we keep sinning and we keep spending like…..there will always be tomorrow….only we might wake up with handcuffs on real soon…when those we owe debt to…come a calling.

I think you are right and wrong. In my experiences women try to forget about it. Things trigger the memory however. It is always there…you just try to block it out of your mind. If ya don't think about it…it will go away and might not be as painful. This is one decision that ya make that never changes. I am sure there are women who don't care and it does not matter to them….but the fact that its one of the most performed surgical procedures…and the fact no one talks about it in the open….says a lot about the underlying reasons women don't talk.

I do not bring religion into the abortion debate….only what science says and that is enough. How you can say our society values life…when millions upon millions are aborted….there is rampant crime and killing in the streets….and in our homes…..blows my mind.

 

When was the US ever a theocracy?

 

Oh I am not going to get into this with you….you don't know anything about human rights and don't care….what would you know about the Constitution and our Founders……? Nothing.

 

Just churchmouse's endearing way of admitting the US was never a Christian Nation...

 

Hey listen I would love to debate this….but this is not the topic of the thread. And I know how you that champion and love abortion like to derail threads…..make a thread and I will come. No problem.

We were a Christian nation as our Supreme Court so said.