I don't get Israel's plan so far...

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by LiveUninhibited, Oct 30, 2023.

  1. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    45,156
    Likes Received:
    12,612
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You're making stuff up.
     
    garyd likes this.
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,614
    Likes Received:
    16,584
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good post.

    Also, we in the USA (and throughout western nations) totally disagree with holding a population guilty of the acts of some of those within the population - group punishment.

    Israel has a history of seeing this a legit today - penalizing family members of suspects by destroying their homes in West Bank and Gaza, etc.

    WII is over, and we have no justification for seeing Germany as anything other than a great and modern state.
     
    Roelath likes this.
  3. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,278
    Likes Received:
    3,356
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Newflash: Israel and Gaza ain’t the West. Classic western thinking though to cherry pick which of its ideals to apply to a completely different part of the world. You in the U.N.? I think you could get hired if not.

    Hamas and everything it does is illegal war crimes. If you don’t like how Israel destroys them then feel free to stick a go pro on your head and show them how it’s done
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  4. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    57,717
    Likes Received:
    17,215
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And they try to use palestinians to keep israel from killing their sorry asses.
     
  5. Roelath

    Roelath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Yeah, why try to reinvent the wheel. The argument has already been made.

    Why can't I criticize? Are you Jewish? Am I not allowed to criticise Jews? Is it Anti-Semitic to criticize or question a Jew? Am I a Nazi for not cooperating?

    They fear being brutalized for protesting or organizing for their own interests. They also fear being kicked out of their homes because a foreign Jew showed up and the state is now removing them. In the end that just means they fear being killed and displaced. Which is what they're doing in the Gaza strip.

    On the backs of American taxpayers. The moment the funding stops the entire nation topples over. It's entirely held up by foreign organizations and nations. Israel is a sham state. Israel is a rogue state that threatens the world with nuclear weapons. The Israelis threaten the Samson option if they lose killing as many people as possible who aren't even involved. They'd rather scorch the Earth to ash rather than yield.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2023
  6. Roelath

    Roelath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    upload_2023-10-31_21-21-15.png
     
  7. Roelath

    Roelath Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    10k dead. 4k of them are children. Were 4000 children part of Hamas or is the "Le Human shield" argument of indiscriminate slaughter acceptable even when it comes to babies and children? Thus far you're arguing in favor of killing children. So why are you crying over October 7th when Hamas flew in and supposedly beheaded 40 babies? It's all justified because the Jewish settlers/army is using their children as human shields. Every person that dies in either a soldier or human shield on both sides. If it isn't the same for Israel and their people are "civilians" or "babies" you're clearly putting one race above the other in terms of worth. I mean Jews already said a singular Jew is worth 15 Americans because they related the attack to 9/11 times 15. Are Jewish lives worth more than everyone elses?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2023
  8. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    16,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    So you have a more humane way to do the job? Suggest one. I can't think of one that would have any chance of success.
    One of the saddest truths in life is that despite knowing people do better- a good many of them will choose not to, and there is nothing you can do to change their minds.
    While the general idea that life is valuable is valid- like it or not. some lives are far more valuable than others, and that is because of the choices people make.
    There are people who respect law, people who understand and respect force, and people who will be killers until they are killed. That's where Hamas is at; I don't think anything can be said or done to convince them otherwise.

    Israel made the Palestinian civilians fully aware of what was going to happen. They were told to get out of the way; if anyone stopped them- it was the Hamas.
     
    roorooroo and popscott like this.
  9. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    77,718
    Likes Received:
    52,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I looked to see if you posted any condemnation of Hamas' subhuman rape and murder of so many civilians, and I can't find any evidence that you did, but boy are you eager to condemn the Jews.

    'Hamas commits human rights violations every minute of every day — attacking civilians, butchering babies, storing and firing munitions from civilian areas, and concealing combatants under hospitals and schools. Under international law, these are war crimes for which, in more confident times, there would have been hanging offenses. But if you hear the phrase used at all, it seems to be consistently and ignorantly used against Israel, Ukraine, and the United States. Ignorantly, in particular, because a lot of supposed violations of human rights and the laws of war actually aren’t. For example, cutting off Hamas’s power and water: This is called a siege. We also call this sanctions. Like all sanctions, the point is to make life difficult for the country and its people. '

    'The reason for this trope is pretty obvious: the U.S. and Israel actually care about international law. Many adversaries only pay attention to international law when it is a useful club with which to beat their opponents. At heart, it’s a scam, a swindle.'

    'The economics are that war is expensive, and the international law scam is a way for countries like Iran and gangster mobs like Hamas to cut their own costs. Murder a few hundred Jews. Oh, it has some costs — bullets and trucks — but then you retreat to Gaza and claim international law as your defense.'

    https://archive.ph/ZQI9u#selection-877.0-877.303
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  10. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    7,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And then Israel killed them. The blame falls on the shoulders of both.
    Bombs should not have been dropped on the refugee camp unless IDF forward air controllers had eyes on the camp and could verify there were no civilians present.
    By not dong that, and by continuing to kill civilians, Israel is condemning their citizens to more terrorist attacks in the future. Bombing your way to victory in this situation is impossible. Every bomb that kills civilians is only going to create more terrorists, and expand the conflict into a regional war. Israel is not in any way defending their people. they are condemning them to suffer more and more terrorist attacks.
     
  11. Irie

    Irie Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't recall NOT doing that?
     
  12. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    77,718
    Likes Received:
    52,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    151,459
    Likes Received:
    63,562
    Trophy Points:
    113
    never said we should do nothing, said we should of got Bin Laden, which we did, there was no need to have 2 10+ year wars
     
  14. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    16,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    The terrorists plan is to kill all Israelis, so not one will be left alive to annoy them. THEY created the game here. THEY made that the rule. Those terrorists ARE what Palestine is. They chose to make it so.
    If Israel responds in kind, how do you see that as unfair? Israel should do the right thing and just die?

    If an Israeli bomb kills civilians after they have been warned and asked to leave, how does that justify more terrorism than slaughtering civilian babies in the middle of the night?

    Of course, Israel isn't doing that. It is not intentionally targeting or killing civilians, as Hamas specifically has and as most muslim terrorists have done in the past.
    Israel has specifically told those civilians to leave, to stay away from all military operations and people- for their own safety. WHY did they choose not to do that?

    A lot of people seem to be having trouble telling the good guys from the bad guys.
    All the Palestinians have to do to live in peace with Israel- is be peaceful. 20% of the population of Israel is Palestinian, they can and do work, live, and get along there, despite there having been an ongoing series of attacks on Israelis for decades. The conflict isn't between Israel and Palestine- it's between Israel and terrorists. The Palestinians can change that. They won't, but it is their choice.
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  15. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    7,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Apparently you missed my point. None of it is justified. Both sides are doing things that is perpetuating the hate.
    Israel is only the good guys if they do not slaughter civilians. If they slaughter civilians, then there are no "good guys" in this conflict, period.
    If you think they did not know there were civilians in that refugee camp, you are out of your mind, living in a delusional fantasy land. If they knew the civilians were there, and they dropped 6 bombs on a refugee camp anyway to kill the Hamas commander, then the targeting of civilians was INTENTIONAL.

    If you can't drop a bomb without killing civilians, then the only way to take out the HVT is to do a ground assault. With such vastly superior numbers and equipment, a ground assault to get these guys is the way to go, where each soldier can positively identify hostile intent before pulling the trigger. Will some civilians die? of course. But it will be far less than dropping 6 JDAMS on a freaking refugee camp. THEN Israel can claim the killing of civilians was unintentional.
     
  16. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    22,940
    Likes Received:
    11,879
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ethnic cleaning IS their intent. Bibi and nearly every single Christian in government has announced it: kill 'em all.

    Christians were equally jubilant about the torture of Bush & Co.
     
  17. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    16,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    You seem to think that the Israelis should ask if the person is a terrorist or a civilian before pulling the trigger on a perceived threat. While Israeli soldiers are in uniform, the majority of Hamas fighters are in civilian clothing and have no problem blending in. That's one of the reasons they don't want civilians to go to safety- they use them as the camouflage they can blend into. A head or armband is quickly disposable, and they instantly change from terrorist to civilian, until the soldier turns to walk away. Hamas has no "rules of war" to follow.

    Does Israel know civilians will be killed? Of course. That is hardly the same as targeting them, and the public warnings from air-drop notices to broadcasts advising the civilians to move to the other side of the river was done to save civilian lives- yet at the cost of Israeli lives, because that is telling Hamas your plans. As for targeting civilians intentionally... you should read this.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/invest...orists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310.

    I don't have an answer, and I don't think there is a sterile way to defend against terrorists like this. I do know that the ones you kill won't do it again, and apparently, that is the only thing that works.
    It's easy to sit back and tell others what they are doing wrong- it's another to come with a genuine alternative that doesn't require them to die to make the rest of us more comfortable. I don't see terrorists like Hamas as the enemy of Israel- I see them as the enemy of everybody. They do not want peace, and their attitude regarding the loss of their own civilians is the value it provides them in demonizing Israel. If they succeeded in destroying Israel- they would just refocus on the next people on the list. "Death to America" is very popular over there, they teach it to those civilian children, to make terrorists of them too....

    I think if you can suggest a way to destroy Hamas without civilian losses, I'm sure Israel would like to know about it. But if the plan is to give terrorists a pass because they hide behind their own civilians, I don't think it will fly. Hamas can stop this anytime they want to. Release the hostages unharmed, and surrender.
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  18. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    23,240
    Likes Received:
    15,613
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The war wasn't just about capturing UBL. It was about destroying Al Qaeda and it's allies.
     
    popscott likes this.
  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    151,459
    Likes Received:
    63,562
    Trophy Points:
    113
    then Trump made a deal with the Taliban and gave it all back to them

    around 10 trillion down the drain
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2023
  20. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    7,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Do you ever stop to wonder WHY so many despise us? Where do you think those bombs are coming from that are killing their children? And I absolutely call BS that knowing civilians are in the location you are dropping a bomb is not the same as targeting them. What kind of morally bankrupt horse **** is that? And you wonder why they chant "Death to America".

    And yeah, the ones you kill won't kill again, but then you have just radicalized every family that had a loved one that you just slaughtered with the bomb. You kill one terrorist and radicalize 100 more. It is simple ****ing math. Look what is going on in the surrounding region now. On the present course, there is no way this doesn't get bigger. And it was all totally avoidable with a little bit of common sense, humanity, and restraint. Hamas has none of those things. I thought Israel did. I was wrong, apparently.

    Israel has the right to defend themselves. They do not have the right to slaughter innocents and drag the rest of the world into a growing conflict. We are all going to look back on this and say "my god, how could we have been so ****ing stupid?"
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2023
    LiveUninhibited likes this.
  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    57,717
    Likes Received:
    17,215
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nonsense. Please note were it not for Iran and Qattar the Palestinians would starve to death.
     
  22. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    23,240
    Likes Received:
    15,613
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We didn't fight the war right from the beginning. It was time to ****.
     
  23. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    16,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Some people have a price you have to pay to live- which is they get to prey on you and you are supposed to tolerate it.

    I agree that most things can be described as a field of grey, but every one of us except fools and cowards draws a line across that field somewhere, and that divides the field to black and white, what we see as acceptable or unacceptable. It sounds like you are saying we should draw the line deep into the grey; and tolerate terrorism because resistance will make it worse. I hope that's not what you think, but that is the message I'm seeing.

    That is the perception that the terrorists want from you. The fact is that when you draw a line on evil of this scale that tolerates any of it at all- then you have given it approval as a tactic, all you are trying to do is negotiate the level you are willing to live with.

    If on the other hand terrorists are wiped out without hesitation or exception, the number of people who will think about becoming terrorists will be thinking- it's the same as suicide, so maybe it won't be as much fun as I thought...and not a good choice. Even a little bit. Zero tolerance, maximum consequence.

    If you could walk up and punch a grizzly bear in the nose and walk away, your friends would think you Macho, and want to do it too. If the next guy got by with it, soon it would be a fad.
    If on the other hand the grizzly instantly ripped your head off, they would probably say that doesn't look like a good idea, and go home.

    Consequences are a very good teacher, if the message is strong enough and unavoidable. Milder messages haven't worked. Israel could have done a surprise attack that would wipe out everyone in Gaza, but did not want to do that. If the situation were reversed with Hamas having the superior power and resources and the Israelis being the occupants of Gaza- that is precisely what Hamas would have done.
    And they wouldn't have warned anyone.....
    And they aren't dragging the world in; the muslim nations that support terrorism threaten that. Appeasement is not going to work here- all it does is prove terrorism works and promotes it.
    Hamas opened the door, Hamas set the rules.
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  24. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    20,411
    Likes Received:
    16,306
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    True, but we should not forget that it was Biden who screwed things up on the way out and gave the taliban many millions in armaments, while screwing all the afghans who had supported us.
     
    Wild Bill Kelsoe likes this.
  25. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    28,186
    Likes Received:
    19,418
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am not Jewish and I never said you couldn't criticize Jews. All I said was that those criticizing from the anti-Israel side are not in a position to criticize from high ground. Arabs live in Israel without fear of being killed. Looking at the surrounding region, can you tell me where it is safe to be Jewish, Christian, atheist, gay, non-Muslim, or critical of religion/government?

    Before this savage terrorist attack, there was no Jewish occupation in Gaza. Being anti-Israel is not from a position of genuine concern for humanity.
     
    roorooroo likes this.

Share This Page