JAG Writes: Other titles for this thread could be: "Jesus And His Apostles Taught Me How To Use Ad Hominem And Name-Calling"___Chris Christian "The Lord Jesus And Many Biblical Hero's Taught Me How To Use Name-Calling."__Chris Christian I am very much interested in what the good folks here have to say about this subject. Let me announce up-front my position: I disagree with Chris Christian. I do not believe such as {1} through {6} below is moral justification for using ad hominem as in calling people for example "dogs" and "pigs" and "snakes" and "vipers" and "stupid" or a "child of Hell" or worse names. Introduction: A fellow Christian, we will call him Chris Christian, recently told me there was Biblical warrant for name-calling {ad hominem} in the Bible. He said that the Lord Jesus and His Apostles and some of the Old Testament's hero's used name-calling and therefore we have a Biblical warrant to follow their example and do likewise. He said that we had Biblical warrant for calling certain people "stupid" and "idiots" and "fools" and "morons" because these names are mild compared to the name-calling used by the Lord Jesus and other Biblical hero's. He said that we also have Biblical warrant for calling certain people "snakes" and "vipers" and "dogs" and "pigs" and "stupid" and "hypocrites." See below {1} - {6}. Chris Christian presented some Bible verses that he claimed as support for his position. {1} through {6} below: {1} Mathew Chapter 23: The Lord Jesus talking to His enemies: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ___The Lord Jesus in Matthew chapter 23 {2} Luke 3:7 and Matthew 3:7 "John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?___John The Baptist {3} " Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions."___Proverbs 18:2 NIV {4}"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid." ___Proverbs 12:1 NIV {5} "Outside are the dogs."___The Apostle John Revelation 22:15 NIV John calls some humans "dogs." {6} "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.___The Lord Jesus Matthew 7:6 The Lord Jesus says here that some humans are "dogs" and "pigs." __________ ad hominem - an attack directed against the person, rather than against their argument or their position JAG
JAG Writes: Here are some Bible verses that might relate in some way to the Opening Post? _____ "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ."__Galatians 6:1-2 _______ "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."__2 Timothy 2:25-26 __________ "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. ___The Lord Jesus John 15:12-14 _________ "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."___Galatians 5:15 ___________ "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."___Ephesians 4:32 _________ "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8 ___________ "Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification."__Romans 14:19 ___________ "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."___Romans 12:18 _________ "Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble."__1 Peter 3:8 ________ "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels."__2 Timothy 2:23 __________ "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen."__2 Timothy 2:14 _________ "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."__1 Corinthians 13:1 __________________ I put those Bible verses up-there just for handy reference. JAG
Compare this Opening Post Here At PF There Is A Lot Of Love In Threads On The Internet, Isn't There? http://www.politicalforum.com/index...in-threads-on-the-internet-isnt-there.573109/ JAG
The takeaway point of this post is "There is no Biblical warrant for ad hominem name calling." Those "snakes" and "vipers" in points {1} and {2} up there were cold blooded murderers. In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus called them "snakes" and "vipers." In Luke 3:7 and Matthew 3:7 John the Baptist called them a "brood of vipers. And they were, in fact, "snakes" and "vipers." These were the same people that tried to kill the Lord Jesus and tried to kill Lazarus as well because Lazarus, raised from the dead by Jesus, was the living breathing evidence that the Lord Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be. The Plot To Murder The Lord Jesus Start quote. "Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. “What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation , , , , So from that day on they plotted to take his life." See John 11:45-53 End quote The Plot To Murder Lazarus Start quote "Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him. John 12:9-11 End quote First They Plotted Murder -- Then They Actually Did The Evil Deed. These same people did in fact murder both the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist. They crucified the innocent Lord Jesus and they beheaded the innocent John the Baptist. So? So I don't think we are going to be debating or discussing issues with cold blooded murderers like the Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law mentioned in Matthew chapter 23. So? So my view is that we do NOT have a Biblical warrant in Matthew 23 or Luke 3:7 or Matthew 3:7 to call anyone a "snake" or "viper" or any other ugly names during discussions or during argumentation or any other time. Then this point: The Lord Jesus knew hearts and minds. At least He knew the hearts and minds of those murderous Pharisees and Teachers Of The Law in Matthew chapter 23. I myself do NOT know the hearts and minds of anyone --- not with certainty I don't. No humans can know with certainty what is in the hearts and minds of other people. My conclusion: It is best to stay away from ad hominem name calling. There is no Biblical warrant for practicing ad hominem name calling. By the way, I have observed ad hominem name calling being practiced in threads on the Internet At Large, but I have never seen any good come from it -- rather only bad things. JAG
We don't get to speak to Pharisees anymore. And even if we found some modern day "same as the Pharisees" types we don't have the authority that the Lord Jesus had -- "the Word was God" John 1:1 Jesus knew the hearts of men. We don't. Then here is a point worth making: There is not a single Bible verse anywhere that COMMANDS us to call anybody a name. So if we don't ever do it, we are NOT being disobedient to any Bible command. Also this: If I am talking to an atheist, it is true that the Bible says "the fool has said in his heart there is no God" Psalm 14:1 --- but I don't have to call him a fool. I can instead say to him, God says in the Bible that a man is a fool if he says there is no God, and moreover God loves you and so does the Lord Jesus and They both want you to become a Christian. JAG
Regarding Psalm 14:1 , , , The fact that Psalm 14:1 says "The fool has said in his heart there is no God" is not a command to Christians to say to atheists, "You are a fool." Regarding the use of the word "fool" , , , {1} We need a definition of the word "fool." fool - "a person who acts unwisely or imprudently; a silly person." This definition will allow us to get the basic idea of fool", which will then allow us to collect several other words that are softer and less harsh than the strong word "fool." See {4} below. {2} The word "fool" in the English speaking world has taken on a clear and bold connotation as a rather strong insult. connotation - "an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning." So? So I believe the word "fool" has taken on very strong harsh nuances in the minds of many people -- they interpret being called a 'fool" as we saying they are a "retarded stupid idiot moron." Since it is a fact that some do interpret it that way, my view is we ought to avoid the use of the word "fool" and not say directly to a person "You are a fool." {3} When we encounter foolish behavior or foolish talk or foolish beliefs eg. Psalm 14:1 --- I think we should ask ourselves this question: "Why do I need to say to this person, "You are a fool" --- rather that saying "Your beliefs are unwise" or "You are acting and talking unwisely" . {4} The basic idea behind the word "fool" allows us to choose from a rather wide selection of other words less harsh than "fool." We can select one of these: A} I think you are acting or talking unwisely. B} I think you are acting or talking imprudently. C} I think you are acting or talking carelessly. D} I think you are misguided in your actions. E} I think you are unwise in your beliefs F} , , , , ,unthinking G} , , , , ,injudicious H} , , , , ,ill-considered I] , , , , , ,thoughtless {5} My view is we ought to apply Matthew 7:12 to this issue. "So in everything do to others what you would have them do to you." I JAG do something or say something that is very foolish. Would I prefer my critic to say: {A} JAG you are a fool. {B} JAG you are silly. {C } JAG you are unwise. {D} JAG you are acting and talking unwisely. I think most of us would select { D }, if we were on the receiving end of the correction-criticism. Conclusion: We can speak the truth as we understand it, and at the same time sustain civility. JAG
So what it sounds like is in general you should be nice to people but in extreme cases its ok to be harsh.
The bible is a composite of many things, none of which defines the whole. Each component has its place, and each place has its components.
There is Real World. There is Thread World. My Opening Post and follow up posts apply mostly to Thread World. Most Forums have Terms Of Service {Rules} and the TOS in most Forums prohibits ad hominem especially sustained severe ad hominem. and Posters agree to abide by the TOS when they register --and so they ought to do what they have agreed to do. So? So my Opening Post and follow-up posts make the point that I do not agree with "Chris Christian" --- and that my OP's {1} through {6} is not moral justification for using ad hominem as in calling people for example "dogs" and "pigs" and "snakes" and "vipers" and "stupid" or a "child of Hell" or worse names --- here inside Thread World on the Internet At Large. My OP and follow-up posts do not necessarily apply to situations in Real World --- that said, it is also true that in most Real World situations calling people , , , , ~ dogs ~ pigs ~ snakes ~ vipers ~ stupid ~ and worse names , , , , , , will not make things better, rather worse. For example, if one wanted to stop The Mob in Portland and other major cities, if he took a megaphone and begin to address The Mob and called them dogs, pigs, snakes, vipers, and any other ad hominem name calling that came to mind --- my view is that The Mob would only become more enraged and more irrational and would intensify their already-high levels of hatred. __________ So? So my view is that Thread World on the Internet At Large is not the place to use ad hominem name calling -- one-on-one-eyeball-to-eyeball ad hominem name calling is not an effective weapon to wage successful Military War or Political War, anyway. So its a waste of time and effort and should be avoided. But my Opening Post and follow up posts are not calls for pacifism. i do not have a pacifist bone in my body. I have nothing against morally justified Military War and Political War. Political War has raged in American Politics as long as America has existed. Political War and Military War has always raged worldwide and history-wide. I have nothing against the Principle Of War ---which is Military Force and Political Force. America won WW 2 with both Military Force and Political Force. Good. One of my favorite people is one of America's WW 2 hero's General George Patton. "The fixed determination to acquire the Warrior Soul, and once having acquired it, to conquer or perish with honor, is the secret to victory."__George Patton One of my favorite sayings is "Only the dead have seen an end to War."__Plato Another is "Its a War of all against all.""__Thomas Hobbs And "Politics is War by another name."___Karl von Clausewitz So? So I have nothing against morally justified Political War and Military War, but calling your military enemies and your political enemies ugly names is not an effective method to wage either one. JAG ``
Speaking about "harsh" , , , do you have a comment on the following? JAG Writes: I don't know much about the "Dark Internet" but I have read there are websites that are so bad that the FBI reads the threads. I stay far away from that kind of stuff. However 12 - 15 years ago I was on a Forum, for a short while, that was 100% automated and had no moderation whatsoever. And it had a lot of traffic too. There was no registration either, all you needed was an email address and a password and you could post. There was a bad language software guard, but they all figured out other ways to post their "gutter language" using stuff like @ $ # **, and there was no software guard that could prevent the violent stuff --- and there were death threats and "thread enemies" tried to "find each other" in Real World. Some even arranged to meet to fight with weapons because of the hatred generated over political debates that ended up in sustained severe ad hominem over a long period of time. JAG ``
Keeping in mind that the OP and my follow up posts apply mostly to Thread World on the Internet At Large, do you nave any comments on this below? JAG Writes: Did You Ever Give Any Thought To This , , , Its worth noting that the Internet At Large is of course, worldwide, and there is a percentage of posters that are clinically insane. Then there is also a percentage of posters that are now active criminals. The law of averages would make this a certainty --- the web says there are 4.7 billion people that have access to the Internet ---so there is a percentage that are literally clinically insane dangerous as well as a percentage that are now active criminals dangerous. Betcha out of that 4.7 billion that has access to the Internet, there is a least 2 or 3 practicing Cannibals on Forums. Maybe got a picture of Jeffery Dahmer tacked to their PC monitor? I wonder how many in The Mob in the streets in Portland are actually literally clinically insane dangerous? We know for a fact that many of them , , , at least many of them , , , are NOW active criminals dangerous , , , and it is a safe bet that most of them post somewhere in threads on Social Media on the Internet At large. For example, based upon what I read, Facebook and Twitter are saturated with hate and ad hominem continuously. /its a crazy world out there . . . lol . . . Best. JAG
JAG Quote. 'We know for a fact that many of them , , , at least many of them , , , are NOW active criminals dangerous , , , and it is a safe bet that most of them post somewhere in threads on Social Media on the Internet At large. For example, based upon what I read, Facebook and Twitter are saturated with hate and ad hominem continuously.' Your facts to suit yourself as usual.
Do you type all of your messages in some type of old school editor that only allows 80 characters or something? It is very retro.
I use the PF posting block editor. Let us try a little experiment. Here is a passage from John chapter 3 in your, I guess, non-retro format. __________ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God , , , Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.___John chapter 3 ____________ Here is that same passage in what you call my retro format. _____________ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God , , , Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.__John chapter 3 ___________ People are different, but my view is that the VAST MAJORITY, if not ALL, modern day magazines use what you call my retro format and have narrow columns on the page and do NOT use the wide format up there ---which is much "harder on the eyes" for most people to read. Its a fact that what you call my "retro" format is much easier on the eyes than having to read "all the way across" the posting block --- at least ALL the modern day magazine publishers think it is. I just checked Forbes Magazine and they use the narrow 2 columns-to-the-page format --- which is even more narrow than the width of my "retro" column up there -- the Forbes Magazine column is 3 and 1/4 inches wide. Then too, there are many people who have some age on them, and their eyes are not any longer "young eyes" and they have a very difficult time following the lines of text all the way across a very WIDE posting block page. Best. JAG
I admit that I personally am guilty of falling into the trap of pride that being deeply religious can so easily lead to! http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-may-have-volunteered.578128/#post-1072032166 I believe that my old church and I got close to the edge of.... https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/12/31/s_941031 Matthew 12:24 ¶ But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. ....... Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
This is helpful........ https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a11 All of chapter ten here is on that topic..... http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/
