I know of a British family who have lived in France for many years. Father. Mother and adult son. All of them have worked principally on the black and pay no taxes in France. They pay a small british tax on the british pensions of the parents. Son aged 50ish has smoked, drank and paid no tax to anyone for longer than I have known them. He has avoided applying for a right to stay in France post brexit because he openly says he wants to stay hidden. Now he is in hospital with serious complications, and has no health cover other than the basic cover given to all LEGAL residents. He is also in France illegally and should have "gone home" months ago. Would you consider the French taxpayer who is paying for his illicit care and blow the whistle on him or not? If not, why not?
How is he able to get health care courtesy the French system for legal residents without proof he's a legal resident? I'm guessing he was admitted on an urgent care basis and they're obviously not going to kick him out now, but won't they know at some point that he's not entitled?
You are right. He was admitted as an emergency and is being sent home. The hospital wants around 1000euros for his care because he can't prove medical insurance cover. He is claiming free treatment because it was an emergency. I am not sure if he qualifies. His domiciliary status has not yet been looked into. He has had his licence taken away for driving while drunk and no one has yet twigged he is "irregular". Would you direct the authorities to look into all this?
No I would not turn him in. Especially now when his health is vulnerable. If you didn't do anything before, now is not the time.
OK. However I also look at this through the eyes of those who are overtly anti migrant and who complain about migrants taking jobs, living illegally, not paying taxes and screwing the system. Would they turn him in?
I'm all about policies controlling borders and implementing policies to discourage illegals. I want the wall and I want our government to prioritize its citizens over building a base of illegals they can use as a voting block. But I won't be immigration cop and turn in my neighbors. It's the government policies that should be under indictment if illegals are motivated to come.
Interesting contrary views. You disapprove of illegal entry and residence but wouldn't turn them in. You would wait for government to do that. If illegals are motivated to come into your country, surely that is the pull of what you are proud of? Are you suggesting discrimination?
Yes I would. To me, turning someone in for being immoral is the moral thing to do. And i say immoral because there's no good reason why anyone would want to dodge getting proper residency permit, etc., so why should whatever those bad reasons are be inflicted on everyone else? Why should they be able to get away with things because they've "hidden" themselves? What's going to keep them in check? Rule breakers tend to be rule breakers across the board. Interesting, then, that he's been caught drunk driving - and now probably driving drunk AND without a license? I think too often different authorities aren't checking in with each other, and assume someone somewhere's checked all's in order. I'd be perfectly happy to clue them in. Even if it's just a matter of avoiding taxes, mandatory insurance or whatever, I still say yes. I can't stand people who think the rules don't apply to them - the kind of people who think they can turn up late for flights, or park wherever they like, in disabled spots, etc. - and if he's only interested in taking and not giving to the country he lives in, he should get out.
What do you mean by discrimination? Are you now suggesting a country is wrongly discriminating by controlling its borders? I originally thought your question was an honest one actually....but now I understand.
No. In the context of the post I replied to it sounded ad if you were suggesting one set of laws for migrants and one for others. Read it again.
You are right. This is a very difficult moral dilemma. I'm usually exceptional at analyzing very complex and difficult ethical dilemmas, so congratulations, you have stumped me. I suppose one question you can ask yourself is who told you about these facts? If someone tells you about something that could create a difficult to decide ethical dilemma for you, maybe you should not act on that information if the person who told you about it would not want you to act. (Since you are sort of being taken into their confidence)
Have you or your family been harmed? If not, mind your own business. If so: Would turning this person in serve to recover your damages? If not, mind your own business.
Isn't turning a blind eye to unethical, immoral and/or illegal behavior the main reason we're in the mess we're in today?
@Pixie, I understand your dilemma. Not enviable at all. I don't need the answers, I'm just sharing my thoughts so you can work out what works best for you. A few things that came to mind for me are: 1. Type of relationship with his parents. How do you know them? How do you know all that about their finances and their son's finances? It sounds like you're closer than just "wave" sometimes and if they aren't that close with other people, they would probably assume you turned their son in if they don't have that deep a connection with others in the area. I'm not suggesting **not** to do it because of that but to be prepared for some hurt feelings if it comes down to you reporting the son. 2. Lack of insurance It sounds like the hospital is already aware that he is not insured and eligible for the free services available for legal residents. If that's the case, I'm a bit unclear on what else you want to report and to whom? In the US, most hospitals have social workers that can help an uninsured or underinsured person apply for financial assistance and provide resources for other services for which they might qualify. Do you all have anything like that there? 3. Reporting I'm not familiar with your area so I'm unclear on where you would report this matter. Is it the hospital? An outside regulatory agency? I would encourage you to find out how handles those types of reports and what level of anonymity you would have if you reported it. The last thing you want is to have to go into a court like setting and state under oath what you witnessed. It's doubtful it is run like that but you can't just assume it's as simple as filling out a form and you're in the clear. I would want to know **EXACTLY** what the process is before diving in head first. 4. The son Again, I don't know your area but if the son is there illegally, could reporting him get him arrested or deported? Is his reason for staying and staying under the radar related to him helping his parents or other family members? While I don't advocate breaking the law, any law, humans and our problems are complicated and he could be sticking around for valid reasons. He may or may not being "staying under the radar" for legitimate reasons though. Is there some way you can figure that out and how that information would help you decide your next course of action? There is a senior in my building. Her son is a big troublemaker. He doesn't live here and he's always bouncing between any woman that will allow him to spend the night and one of our local shelters. He is allowed to visit his mother and stay with her for up to 7 days but he is supposed to have a 7 day interim before he can stay another 7 days. He really cares about his mom a lot and I admire that in spite of his shady personal behavior so I've never reported him for being in the building longer than what is allowed. However, if his presence was disruptive or threatening or caused me some kind of inconvenience, I would report him. This situation is different than yours in the sense that my neighbor's son isn't breaking an actual law. His mother is just violating the terms of her lease. I wish you luck in whatever you decide!
I have to say that, for any who haven't caught on, your thread's title, and fictional setup, are a clever ruse, to present this "moral dilemma." One problem with it, if you don't mind my saying, is your putting this disclosing of the truth, on your own back, instead of those in the French hospital, who should, properly, be responsible for verifying the patient's legal citizen status. But under the presumption that, even if you only regarded these people as acquaintances, there was a sufficient closeness, for you to both be 1) aware of all these, pretty private, details about their lives and, yet, to have 2) chosen to not report them for "many years," for their avoiding taxes, by "work(ing) on the black"-- which I take to be the British equivalent, of our American expression, getting "paid, under the table"-- it is clear to me, & I would hazard, to most, that it would be best for you to keep your nose out of the matter, at this point, rather than allowing your concern for French taxpayers, to cause you to impulsively interject yourself, thereby adding complications, to your acquaintance's health crisis. I will only add, in epilogue, that it would be a simple matter, using different details, to paint a picture in which the person with a similar knowledge of someone's exploiting of the system (particularly if it is their own country's system), should feel absolutely justified in reporting the offender.
If it were me, I wouldn't turn him in. I would vote for policies that prevent people from being able to scam the system, not single out those who manage to get away with it. If the govt is relying on people to turn in their neighbors as a means to enforce the law, its made a wrong turn somewhere and the govt needs to be corrected, not the individual.
The government does have laws against such things. However it cannot keep track of every person who never puts his head over the parapet. The government doesn't RELY on whistleblowers. But would you assist lawbreaking?
* checking my notes to see when is the last time the authorities helped me do my job... .... Hhhmmmm, nope not seeing it. Let them do their own job. Of course since it's a completely fictional scenario I suppose it doesn't really matter.
Ate you calling me a liar? Before brexit there were thousands of bits in the EU who worked under the table in construction, renovationand gardening for other bits who couldn't speak the local language. Most went back to the UK after brexit when the residency rules changed. He discrimination. Now he is trying to get out of thousands of euros worth of health cover at honest taxpayers' expense. Would you turn away from saying something if this person were Mexican or some other illegal resident? BTW I am a French citizen. I hold dual citizenship and france is my home. Do not ever assume I am not telling the truth. I won't be insulted that way.
That is another part of this issue. The in-between is a good friend and we are part of the same social circle.
That raises some more questions. Again, I'm not asking for me, just giving you some things to consider while you ponder your next step. 5. The in-between. Did he or she tell you this in confidence because of their moral struggle or just to gossip? And, have you ever had a disagreement with this person? Most people, unfortunately, as "fair weather" friends and if you haven't had any kind of disagreement with the person that told you, and then you report, it might change the nature of the relationship. Again, I am not advocating turning a blind eye or stepping on people's toes but I, personally, have been put in some very, very bad situations and there are just certain lines I won't cross. Sure, it's cost me "friends" but a person that sincerely cares about your friendship would be willing to openly talk and iron things out if there are hurt feelings. 6. Social circle The one is a biggie for me. People say all kinds of things when they are angry so, when I am faced with situations similar to these, I calculate the level of backlash from third parties. I don't have a supportive family (I never have) so I am on my own no matter what happens in my life. I'm aware that most people don't understand what it looks like. The best way to clarify it is I would want to calculate who within my social circle has the ability to negatively impact my housing or employment. When I first started working, I honestly didn't care about walking away from a job when pressed to do something unethical and/or illegal but I also didn't have kids and I never had trouble finding a job so I could do that. I'm not sure that I would take the same stances today because I do have children and I haven't worked for someone else in ages. Therefore, in your shoes, I would try to think through who knows how much about your personal life to cause problems if they learn of you reporting this guy and have an issue with your choice. If it's nobody, you're home-free. If it's possible, you can still report him if you choose to do so, but you might have to tread a little lightly around your social circle for a bit. Again, good luck!
Forgive me. It had seemed that you were trying to create some analogy to immigrants, in America illegally, accessing our own healthcare services; this impression of mine, flowed out of the spirit of your Animal Farm thread, which turned out to be mostly about things like white privilege, and the unfairness towards racial & ethnic minorities-- all very worthwhile topics, but-- as I have gone over with you, in detail, a misleading detour, from Animal Farm. Please understand that I, in no way, was insinuating dishonesty, on your part, any more than one would allege that, of the creator of a murder-mystery, or such. I took what you were doing to be an artful conceit, to pull in more poster-interest; I saw absolutely nothing wrong or dishonest about it. I had only felt, mistakenly, that you were dressing up your thread, on its face, with an applicable analogy, which I expected would then quickly proceed, like the last one, to its intended purpose. Had I known that you were French (and not assumed that, in the scenario you'd depicted, you would have known these people from the U.K., as a Brit, yourself), I'm sure I would have felt less confident in my interpretation. Once again, my sincere apologies, for my error.
