If anyone wants to defend the United States then

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by yangforward, Nov 7, 2023.

  1. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If anyone wants to defend the United States then in addition to making
    an anti missile system, would they also want to close the border?
     
  2. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is the point in spending a fortune and years in the military defending a country that doesn't want to lift a finger to defend itself?
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    We actually do not need to "make" and anti-missile system. We actually have what is considered the best one in the world.

    However, nobody is willing to spend the money to actually put it into operation. We once had around 265 anti-missile sites scattered across the country. But there is no way in hell that Congress is going to ever approve such a program ever again and authorize the Army to add almost 30,000 new soldiers to man it.

    As far as the border, largely pointless as that is actually not a military issue at all but the area of Homeland Security. The DoD has no role in protecting the border, so bringing it up in a military thread is rather pointless. About like saying the military should handle the out of control retail theft problem.
     
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  4. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So if someone delivers a nuclear weapon by missile it is a military matter,
    but if it comes in someone's luggage through an open border and gets left
    in a car parked in an inner city area then it isn't a military matter.
     
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    That is because diplomacy failed.

    Please, can you make some kind of sense and actually talk like a person? Or can all you do is make bullet points?
     
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  6. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Meaningless defending any border when there are THOUSANDS of MILES of undefended BEACHES on all 4 sides of the land mass. Then there are Alaska and Hawaii plus a bunch of other territories that need to be "defended" as well.

    There is no SIMPLISTIC one size fits all solution.
     
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  7. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yep you are right about that. and its why trying to ban the importation of drugs or firearms or even illegals is bound to fail
     
  8. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    so called "backpack" nukes are largely a myth.
     
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  9. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Stopping illegal immigration is easy and simple; you just start prosecuting employers and fining shareholders, and when these scammers deliberately try to overwhelm your court system like they're doing now you simply put them in outdoor camps with cheap tents until its their turn for a court hearing, same as it works for legal citizens. Problem goes away on its own, and let Mexico take care of their 'refugees' themselves.. Then the 'humanitarians' can snivel and whine about how badly latinos treat their own.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2024
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  10. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Same as laws against rape and murder have failed.

    Stopping drug trafficking is also easy, it just takes the will to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2024
  11. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    not in a society where we have things like the fourth amendment
     
  12. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The budget for immigration control is now almost 25 billion dollars/year,

    as for an anti ballistic missile defense system, the existing one is for just
    a few missiles in total,

    what we need is to cooperate with the rest of the world and keep the nukes
    under control, and stop giving them to the dangerous country.

    Homeland security totals 82 billion / year so the total is 107 billion/year
    after adding in immigration control, so what's the rest of the
    current 886 billion dollar 'defense' budget for?

    and before people point out how expensive unnecessary wars can be,
    those give rise to future wars and are therefore anti-defensive, not
    defensive.
     
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Primarily pay. Then I think area two is housing and dependent care. After that, training then maintenance.

    I want to say spending for new equipment is somewhere around 8%.
     
  14. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Not a concern. Going after cartels and dealers isn't a violation of the 4th Amendment. There is nothing 'unreasonable' about tracking dope dealers and seizing illegal dope shipments either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
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  15. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

    Personally I like having a large overseas presence, as I prefer we fight wars overseas than on our own territory; it's much cheaper in the long run, despite all the sniveling from isolationists and libertoon cranks.
     
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  16. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    nope but you have to have a warrant based on probable cause for many things dealing with dope interdiction. I know, I was with the DOJ for 24 years. I know this inside and out and you will never get rid of a market driven issue by criminal penalties. in fact the more illegal you make drugs, the more lucrative the business becomes
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Plus it has been shown to improve relations and cooperation between our nations.

    I have served in several nations, and always got along great with the military and people of the host nations. And even trained and worked with foreign militaries in the US, and the same thing. It is not unusual on a great many bases to be working with people from Germany, England, Japan, Taiwan, and a slew of other nations from Norway and Belize to Australia, Philippines, and Jordan. And during my last deployment it was on a base with service members from about a dozen different nations. Chilling at a table with British soldiers and Aussie airmen was a lot of fun.

    And that is one thing that a lot of those people do not get either. Yes, there actually are some rather large detachments of foreign soldiers based in the US. Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico has far more foreign personnel than it does US personnel. With sizeable detachments from England, Germany, and Italy. And the detachment of German soldiers on Fort Bliss was so large that they had their own housing area, their own schools, and a large chunk of the PX and Commissary selling things familiar to them and likely found nowhere else in West Texas.
     
  18. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Been there done that. When in 1940 it appeared war with Japan was a possibility
    we did not return our naval ships after exercises to their home ports along the West
    Coast but left the ships in Hawaii, and then put an embargo on Japan to speed
    things up.
     
  19. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    So stiffer penalties for murder and rape will cause those to increase and make them pay more? WE also have RICO statutes that can be made to make membership in criminal enterprises like gangs liable for all crime committed by their fellow gangsters, for a start, making it possible to round these up by the truckload whenever a shooting occurs. Waiting around for these gangsters to commit crimes individually is just silly logic. I realize lawyers hate anything that takes money out of their pockets, but the incomes of lawyers is not a concern of mine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
  20. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Speed what up, defending our treaties with countries in the Pacific from nasty racist Japs? This bothers you?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
  21. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    let me explain this-there is no real market force for rape or mass murder. If we have a serial rapist or a serial muderer in say the Southern District of Ohio and the police arrest him or kill him-there is no market force that creates another serial rapist or killer. But if there are 4000 crack heads and Sammy the crack dealer is busted by the DEA, that means 4000 crack heads needing a source of supply and perhaps Joey the Crack head becomes Joey the dealer to supply those 3999 other heads.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
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  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, we rebased them to Hawaii. Rebasing Naval ships is actually pretty common. And when that is done, the new port is their "home port".

    That is because under War Plan Orange, it was expected that a war with Japan would kick off with an invasion of the Philippines. So much of the fleet was moved to Hawaii so it could respond to that more quickly.

    Japan would invade the Philippines, the US would send a massive fleet there to relieve them.

    And it was not just a "possibility", it was assured and the US was already preparing for that. Huge amounts of men and material were already being prepared for movement to the Philippines. All of the Marines had been moved there from China, in addition to all of the ships in the Asiatic Fleet that had been in China. And more rebasings were going to start in 1942. Including the movement of older destroyers and cruisers. And moving the USS Nevada (BB-36) to be the flagship was being strongly considered.

    In addition to returning the USS Langley (CV-1) into an aircraft carrier, and sending between 3 and 5 escort carriers to augment the fleet.
     
  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And there were multiple embargos placed on Japan. Primarily because of their actions in China and then invading French Indochina.

    First, in September 1940 they placed an embargo on scrap metal to Japan and closed the Panama Canal. Then on 26 July 1941 they froze Japanese assets. Then on 1 August they placed an embargo on oil and gas shipments in response to an embargo Japan had placed on China.

    But by then, much of the Pacific Fleet had already been rebased to Hawaii.

    But there was no bringing the embargo "to speed". There were multiple embargos, each in response to different actions Japan undertook.

    And an embargo has absolutely no need for a fleet, ever. The Navy had nothing to do with those.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2024
  24. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Nice anecdotes. Too bad it's just silly 'logic'. What a society legalizes matters, and sends messages to its children.
     
  25. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

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    Logically counter what he said then. The financial motivations of murder and rape are not going to increase the same way the financial motivation for selling drugs will. Rape and murder are not products. Rape and murder are not manufactured and packaged. Simulated rape and murder might be prevalent in our entertainment media, but beyond that people are not consuming and becoming addicted to them.

    You're going to have to admit that a tough guy one size fits all approach might sound good if you're living in a Clint Eastwood/Charles Bronson fantasy world, but the folks who have to make the tough choices only get to live in the real one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2024

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