If evolution is true, then obviously "Jesus" is not real.

Damn, I've addressed this issue countless times. Here goes one more time so please pay attention.

Exodus 34:11-28 (NLT) = 11 But listen carefully to everything I command you today. Then I will go ahead of you and drive out the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Pretties, Hivites, and Jebusites.12 “Be very careful never to make a treaty with the people who live in the land where you are going. If you do, you will follow their evil ways and be trapped.13 Instead, you must break down their pagan altars, smash their sacred pillars, and cut down their Asherah poles.14 You must worship no other gods, for the Lord, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you.
15 “You must not make a treaty of any kind with the people living in the land. They lust after their gods, offering sacrifices to them. They will invite you to join them in their sacrificial meals, and you will go with them.16 Then you will accept their daughters, who sacrifice to other gods, as wives for your sons. And they will seduce your sons to commit adultery against me by worshiping other gods. 17 You must not make any gods of molten metal for yourselves.
18 “You must celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days the bread you eat must be made without yeast, just as I commanded you. Celebrate this festival annually at the appointed time in early spring, in the month of Abib, for that is the anniversary of your departure from Egypt.
19 “The firstborn of every animal belongs to me, including the firstborn males from your herds of cattle and your flocks of sheep and goats.20 A firstborn donkey may be bought back from the Lord by presenting a lamb or young goat in its place. But if you do not buy it back, you must break its neck. However, you must buy back every firstborn son.
“No one may appear before me without an offering.
21 “You have six days each week for your ordinary work, but on the seventh day you must stop working, even during the seasons of plowing and harvest.
22 “You must celebrate the Festival of Harvest with the first crop of the wheat harvest, and celebrate the Festival of the Final Harvest at the end of the harvest season.23 Three times each year every man in Israel must appear before the Sovereign, the Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out the other nations ahead of you and expand your territory, so no one will covet and conquer your land while you appear before the Lord your God three times each year.
25 “You must not offer the blood of my sacrificial offerings together with any baked goods containing yeast. And none of the meat of the Passover sacrifice may be kept over until the next morning.
26 “As you harvest your crops, bring the very best of the first harvest to the house of the Lord your God.
“You must not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down all these instructions, for they represent the terms of the covenant I am making with you and with Israel.”
28 Moses remained there on the mountain with the Lord forty days and forty nights. In all that time he ate no bread and drank no water. And the Lord wrote the terms of the covenant—the Ten Commandments—on the stone tablets.

BTW, the first time the phrase "Ten Commandments" is used in the Bible verbiage is in Exodus 34:28.

Do you really think any idiot is going to post the actual ethnocentric Jewish Ten Commandments when the first one tells them to destroy other people's religious shrines and artifacts? That's what the Taliban and ISIS members do to other people's religious shrines and artifacts.

Now redeem your donkey and stop boiling your goat in its mother's milk.

 

I completely accept evolution, and it doesn't really prove that stories written by Neolithic people are a lie, just that they had no real theory. Having lacked science they did the best they could.

 

Still you didn't list the 10 Commandments. You are clueless.

Let's go to a later time, Deuteronomy and see what God told Moses. Hmm,
where have we seen these before? I wonder why he didn't quote from Chapter
34? Please pay careful attention.

6 “‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the
house of slavery.

7 “‘You shall have no other gods before me.

8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything
that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water
under the earth. 9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord
your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to
the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing steadfast
love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 “‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will
not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded
you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is
a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son
or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your
donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that
your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall
remember that you were a slave[c] in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God
brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore
the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 “‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you,
that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the
Lord your God is giving you.

17 “‘You shall not murder.

18 “‘And you shall not commit adultery.

19 “‘And you shall not steal.

20 “‘And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 “‘And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your
neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or
his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.’

22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the
midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added
no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

As I said. These are the 10 Commandments. The ones you are trying to make
to be the 10 Commandments, aren't.

 

Actually the Tanakh says '10 words'. Christianity uses '10 commandments' but this would be different in Hebrew.

If the early 10 'Words' were not on Tablets what does 34:4 mean by 'He hewed two tables of stone like unto the first.'

 

As you seem to misunderstand how the Idea of scientific exploration works...I will attempt to help:

Science is a process of continued and never ending exploration intended to gain knowledge and explain the world/universe we inhabit. This means we will never be able to claim to "know" anything completely, though we are often able to provide useful data that becomes proven as valid over time and utilization of the physical results of theory.
Abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with the theory of evolution, as it attempts to deal with what occurred before life began to evolve. There is however a great deal of data to support some type of energy charged chemical interaction taking place over extremely long timeframes involving innumerable events that may have allowed for self replicating combinations of complex elements similar to RNA and organic compounds. This is not "Proof", nor is it claimed to be....but it is most certainly more likely than a magic man playing in the mud poofing humans into existence.

You wish science to provide absolute proof of theory....yet, require absolutely none to accept the God hypothesis.

 

As I've write before, the English wrote the Bible and they included countless clues that it was just an elaborate prank. If you notice the Deuteronomy story is completely at odds with the Exodus story. The Exodus story gives a detailed sequential account of the events that led up to Moses chipping out the tablets and writing the Ten Commandments on them. And the account ends with it saying that the preceding verbiage was the Ten Commandments.

So what does this mean?

One (or both) of the stories is just BS. I suggest that the Deuteronomy chapter 5 story is the prank because the Exodus story of the Ten Commandments is more logical or credible if such an event was to ever happen. If you go with the Deuteronomy version then you have to renounce all of the story in Exodus chapters 19 through 34.

So, which story are you ready to declare a lie? Is it the Exodus 19-34 version or is it the Deuteronomy version?

 

As you've "write before". You can't even make a complete English sentence yet
alone determine a hoax.

Get over it, you're wrong and incapable of providing an intelligent discourse.
I know that because you've yet to provide anything of the sort.

You should give up. You've lost this debate and there is nobody to help you.

Case in point? You're busted. You have no clue as to what you're talking
about.

 

Moses chiseled out the stone tablets and the God character (or Moses) wrote the Ten Commandments (the verbiage in Exodus 34:11-26). In Exodus 34:1 it says that God said that he would do the writing. In 34:27 the God character tells Moses to do the writing. In 34:28 it suggests that God did the writing since the pronoun "He" is capitalize despite the preceding sentence that says that Moses neither ate bread or drank water for forty days and forty nights.

 

So we have 3 sources.

1) Early Christian writings http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/matthew.html
2) Catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm
3) BibleGateway.com https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0002443
4) Source not used

4) The source I did not choose was something with some agenda to try and prove Christ is a myth or some such thing:

1) Early Christian writings has no apparent bias. It presents religious scholarship by well respected religious scholars often with opposing viewpoints.

None of the scholars state on this site state that Matt was definitively written by the apostle Matt. Each Scholar gives detailed rational as to how that conclusion was arrived at.

2) Catholic Encyclopedia. This of course has an obviously pro Christian bias. Even so there the CE casts considerable doubt on the authorship of Matt. Even after presenting all the evidence they can muster they do not conclude that Matt the apostle was definitively the author of Matt.

So we have two sources that agree. An objective source and a pro Christian biased source. What's more is that the information given for the rational is quite similar in both the CE and Early Christian writings.

So a number of Biblical Scholars agree and the Catholic Encyclopedia agree and they agree for many of the same reasons.



Then we have .... Ta Daaaaa 3) "Bible Gateway. com"

So here we have again a website with not much apparent credibility on the line as they are not representative of a major denomination like the Catholic Church

So obviously pro Christian bias. Unlike the other two sources this site gives very little rational for their conclusion.

Both of the other two sources claim that there was good reason to believe the Apostle Matt did have some writings in Hebrew. Then both sources state that we do not know whether or not this is the same as the Matt in Greek. There is no agreement that Matt wrote something in Greek or even agreement that early post - Apostolic writers even had a written text from Matt at the time they were quoting from.

Your source glosses over all of this and just randomly comes to a conclusion. They set up a straw man argument (one that does not exist) and claim they do not agree with it. And this is all they give in support of their conclusion that ...

The author of this book was beyond a doubt They present a fallacy and then claim "Beyond a doubt"

You need to find a better source. Something that at least pretends to be objective.

We just do not know who wrote the Gospel of Matt.... and your source gives no evidence too the contrary.

 

I don't have A DOUBT that a person known as Jesus existed as the Roman's if anything were meticulous record keepers and in the Vatican today exist records sent from Judea and Pilot about Jesus and his death.

Now as far as being an actual SON of GOD....that is an entire new ballgame.

Im my opinion....it really does not matter if Jesus was an actual SON of a GOD as the only thing that is important in our weary world is his teachings of LOVE, FORGIVENESS and treating others in a manner you would want to be treated.

The LESSONS will live on....whether there is any truth to the Son of GOD claim.

The problems we have though is some Christians do not follow the Teachings of Jesus as they are more interested in FORCING others to believe as they do.

If Jesus was alive and saw this....he would be Mortified.

Jesus once said something that went basically like this...."It is not important if you believe in me....but it is important that you believe in what I do."

THAT...is true wisdom....something that is in short supply in many so called Christians.

AboveAlpha

 

Now we are getting at the true message of Christ IMO. Jesus never said "worship me" ... he said "heed my message". The message of Jesus had nothing to do with him being God or some Trinity.

The message was do good works and the rest will take care of itself. One simple rule that sums up the law and the prophets. aka "The Golden Rule" or as James said "The Royal Command"

Do unto others as you would have them do to you ... Love thy neighbor as thyself and other variations of the same rule.

 

One has to look at the fact that only 4 Apostels Gospels were used...the FAB 4...Matthew, Mark, John and Luke and the other 8 Apostels Gospels were not selected by the Roman Imerial Biblical Canon as they conflicted with the FAB 4.

Thing is...not one single Original Gospel Exists as the scraps that do exist in the Vatican are copies of copies of copies many times over.

Even worse....the Roman's would kill those who were the authors or keepers of the Gospels and the Gospels were destroyed usually burned thus another person would have to write down a new copy from memory and this happened again and again and again.

Thus we really cannot know how different what is written in the New Testament is to what the original Gospels actually stated.

AboveAlpha

 

I was looking for my thread when I scoped your thread via the title. 'Oh man' I thought, I locked and loaded a piece of super duty bubblelicious chewing gum (original) so I wouldn't bite my tongue in half and read it.

I wondered after reading if I should attack the author unmercifully due to what I consider highly faulty reasoning, science, theology, and critical thinking . But no, that would be wrong, because debate partners should be neutral and we should respect all claims and such as worthy for debate regardless of the claims of the OT within reason I suppose. I want to know why the biblical story/parable (?) of Adam and eve would demote Jesus to a fraud? Maybe you should read this; Mitochondrial first mother: Have Scientists Found the Mother (of humankind>>>reva<<<) …... A world wide survey of human mitochondrial DNA ... to that of our mother. Mitochondrial DNA is ... mitochondrial DNAs stem from one woman who is . www.mhrc.net/mitochondrialEve.htm

Then after you check the science of Mitochondrial DNA and how science found 'Eve'* visit the other side of the coin, please cram a basic fast course in the basic literary styles of the bible 101 at this (the following) or others sites of your choosing ; I typed 'What kinds of writing styles are used in the Bible' in the bing window, this is a fairly good place to start; http://carm.org/bible-writing-styles

notes;

* Eve...Before marg etc writes me a poison pen reply, I am full aware that eve was a name given to a stand in fictional woman, she could just as easily been named Jane Doe.


Rev. A.

 

The vast number of existing Christian's and their Leaders understand that if a GOD exists the processes of the creation of the Universe and Life would fall under Quantum Evolution and then Biological Evolution.

Every sect of Christianity except the Baptists accept this as a fact.

But how anyone can take such a reality and state that it means Jesus did not exist I have no idea.

AboveAlpha

 

More intellectually skewered wishful thinking by what seems to be an activist atheist etc. Why do I make that claim? It's painfully obvious by your claims you um'... hate is the most accurate word... Christianity and Christians. It would be a full time job (with all the overtime I could stand) to correct all the factually barren misstatements made by christian (etc) bashers in this forum alone. If I am wrong let me know I will apologize.

Ok, let us begin with the lies of omission that saturates your reply like the still hidden anti-personal mines that saturate Vietnam's soil . What your assessment does not relate undermines your posts credibility more than what it does say. The new testament is the best example of accurate ancient document in existence. Go to this site to understand why; http://www.str.org/articles/is-the-new-testament-text-reliable#.VFs8z2fj6XU

If you don't have time I can tell you that there are many evidences to show the new testaments accuracy. Here is the last paragraph in the site I gave you;

"This issue (the accuracy and cred. of the new testament...mine ~ reva) is no longer contested by non-Christian scholars, and for good reason. Simply put, if we reject the authenticity of the New Testament on textual grounds we'd have to reject every ancient work of antiquity and declare null and void every piece of historical information from written sources prior to the beginning of the second millennium A.D.

Has the New Testament been altered (etc...mine reva) ? Critical, academic analysis says it has not."

Reva

 

I do not know where you got that info ie "Every sect of Christianity except the Baptists accept this as a fact.!" et. al. Additionally, the best christian apologists such as Craig uses a Cosmological argument (KCA) which relies mostly on classical physics of the big bang to defend his claim that God exists. The KCA does not employ quantum mechanical devices (calculations etc), rather as I said it relies heavily upon the standard model of big bang cosmology. When God allows us to be privy (to understand) to his handi work ie quantum gravity
then and only then, we may as hawking wishfully laments, we just might begin to understand how the big bang banged !

reva

 

I have no problem with who is supposed to have 'written', just with the fact I thought you were saying there was only one set of tablets.

However, as we agree that these things never happened, as indeed many Jews are beginning to understand, there's little point in debating these things as actual events.

The Tanakh has many anomalies, particularly up to the era of the kings.

 

Vast number? I wouldn't bet on that.

 

I'm sure there are some scraps of truth left in some of the Gospels who knows what.

The early Christian church was two groups right at the beginning ... The original disciples were the "Church of Jerusalem". Judeo Christians (all Jews and followed Jewish law)

The other group was that founded by Paul. There was little interaction between the two and there was disagreement as shown in Acts and James 2.
One of the big issues was adherence to OT law but there were others.

Paul of course had never met Jesus while he was living and rarely interacted with the Church of Jerusalem. We can see this from his writings which make up nearly half the NT. Not a word about the life of Jesus or any "gospels" written by any disciples.

Paul did not know of any Physical resurrection. To him the Resurrection was spiritual and he likens Christs appearances after death to his vision.

After the death of Paul the animosity between the two groups grows as does the anti Jew sentiment and resentment of the law and the OT. http://www.ableever.net/Doctrine/Keep_My_Commandments/Fiscus_Judaicus.pdf

If you read the first paragraph of this document you can read instructions from the Church to its members. "Do not be deceived with strange doctrines nor old fables" referring to the OT !

The Church of Jerusalem disappeared and so we really do not know much about the beliefs of this group. The Gospels did not come until after Pauls death and we do not know who wrote them. After decades of oral tradition how much of the original story was left and where did the stories that were written down come from.

All we really have to do on is Mark as Matt Luke and John used Mark as a source document while adding and omitting stuff along the way.

In Mark Jesus is deified at his baptism at 30 years old. No virgin birth and no genealogy.

Matt omits some of the parts of Mark portraying Jesus negatively but adds a virgin birth and genealogy. As the Christian dogma evolves there would have been a desire to connect their Messiah to ancient prophecy.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm

This is straight out of the Catholic Encyclopedia - not some author with an agenda against Christianity.

So over perhaps 3-5 decades (70-120) Jesus goes from being some fellow that was adopted by God as his Son at the age of 30 in Mark. To an immaculate conception in Matt establishing Jesus as the one prophesied (supposed to restore the Jews to former glory)

Most Scholars believe Matt was written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. The Temple was destroyed by there was hope that Messiah would return and restore Israel.

As we know from history this did not happen. The Fiscus Judaicus was around 106 AD and folks and at least these early Christians had pretty much given up hope that some Messiah was returning to rescue the Jews from the bad Romans. In fact they are distancing themselves from the Jews if not downright anti Jewish .


This is the situation within Christianity when John was written (90-120). John is a fusion of Pauline and Hellenist Philosophy (this is where the Logos idea comes from ) The average Greek had already had an understanding of the neoplatonic understanding of God and the concept of Logos. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo's_view_of_God

By using the term Logos conjunction with Jesus John was attempting to give Christianity a broader appeal and have it conform more with modern ideology.

With John Jesus becomes "Pre-existing"

Debates raged over the next 2 centuries over the pre-existence or not of Jesus and the nature of his divinity. It is important to note that none of the really early Christian fathers believed Jesus and God were the same. The idea of the modern trinity did not exist until Tertullian around 200AD and the idea was condemned as heretical at the time. It would be another 125 years after Tertullian that this doctrine took hold.

Around 325 AD Constantine steps onto the scene and wants to unify the Roman empire under one religion (with him as the head of that religion - pontifex maximus). He convenes a council of Bishops at Nicene and .. baaadddda boooooom.. Jesus becomes "GOD" God of Abraham. He does this with the insertion of one word into the creed, "homoousios". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_kfP96O4N0#t=1922

 

As far as I am aware of every sect of Christian Leadership except Baptists understand that Quantum Evolution and Biological Evolution are realities.

If you can show we any Christian Sec Leadership that does not believe this besides Baptists...please show me.

AboveAlpha

- - - Updated - - -

I should have just said Christian Leadershi as you are right.

Religious People are crazy.

AboveAlpha

 

Denomination means nothing, which in fact shows more bias. Can you produce
evidence that this site isn't credible?

Au contraire, we do know it was St. Matthew who wrote the Gospel.

 

The evidence was in the post .... can you not read ?

 

Have you every thought about honestly answering a post instead of dodging
and making up false claims you can't support? Seriously. What is it about
not answer that bothers you?

 

Really?

Name one Christian Leadership Sect that does NOT adhere to the reality of EVOLUTION other than the Baptists.

NAME ONE.

AboveAlpha

 

I agree with everything except because of the extensive and meticulous Roman reports and their details sent to Rome where even today reports of the activities of Jesus in Judea exist....mostly reports detailed by Herod's aids...as the Roman's did not view Jesus as much of a threat....I am fairly certain Jesus existed.

As for being the SON of a GOD...that is something else entirely.

AboveAlpha

- - - Updated - - -

By the way....do you even KNOW what Quantum Evolution is?

You see it happening every day with your own eyes.

AboveAlpha