If history is 'written by the winners'...

History, we are told, is 'written by the winners'.

Really, what that statement means is that much of 'accepted' history may not be factually accurate, in that it will inevitably contain a heavy bias, in favour of the eventual victor, with a great deal of propaganda of the time, being woven into 'historical fact'. Propaganda that factors out anything that places said victor in a bad light, while other propaganda that places the enemy of the time, in as negative a light as possible.

So, if we accept that 'history is written by the winners', and that my broad definition is quite accurate, and if it can be shown that there are many examples of the above, and if we know or suspect that we have been lied to, so many times before, how then do we know that what we take on as 'fact', in relation to Nazi Germany, is absolute truth, rather than the truth according to the 'winners'?

Here is a common misconception, one that I have heard touted around, by various people, down the years.

Hitler wanted to 'create a World race of blonde haired, blue eyed people'.

I personally believe this false.

If it were true, then what of Hess and Goebells? Not to mention the fact that Hitler was allies with, and admired the Japanese?

For me, the idea sounds plain silly, War time propaganda, the remants of which have lived on.

Another that you may have heard, is the grotesque idea that the Nazi's 'made soap from human fat'.

Quite apart from the fact that it is hard to imagine quite who the end user was intended to be, this is another myth.

According to...Jewish Virtual Library;

"It's a general conception that the Nazis manufactured soap," says [Michael] Berenbaum.

But those of us working in this area have not used it as an example [of Nazi atrocity] in the last 10 to 15 years. We don't have any evidence that the Nazis actually manufactured soap with human bodies."

When Berenbaum began putting the USHMM exhibit together, even he believed "it was obviously the case" that the Nazis produced soap from fat. "There was a question as to whether we would use soap in the exhibition," he says. But after a thorough search, he adds, "I didn't find any evidence of it.

Andrew Hollinger, a spokesman in the [Holocaust Museum] department of media relations;

"Available documentary evidence and eyewitness accounts have been unable to corroborate in a conclusive manner reports that the National Socialists and their collaborators used human fat from their victims in the manufacture of soap." It goes on to say: "rumors that Germans made soap from human remains originated in French propaganda from the First World War."

The scholars’ view is based in -part on analysis of the small blue-green cakes of soap that Holocaust survivors have presented over the years, claiming that they were made from human fat.

When analyzed, however, the bars turned up no evidence of human DNA.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap.html

 

The vast majority of the demonic stories surrounding Hitler's Germany have been discredited and the "6 million Jews" number has been revised lower and lower continually, even by Jewish sources, but naturally nobody is going to go out of their way to correct these misconceptions with the general public so the narrative remains. "Lesser of two evils, had to be stopped, wanted to exterminate everyone, etc etc."

That variety of history is for the... less educated.
Most rational people understand Germany, a nation of family, science, education, books, tradition, honor, patriotism, etc, was in a fight for its life against the Soviet Union and acted accordingly on the war front because of it.

I lay the blame for WWII on the Allies and have no sympathy for the Soviet Union which was a state seemingly designed only to inflict incredible misery on the human condition and one that just happened to be right on Germany's door step.

 

How many millions is it okay to kill?

 

It's worth pointing out that nobody really knows anything about The Third Reich and that void of knowledge if filled only with stories of "death camps." Knowing that it's easy to understand why it is despised.

I've studied The Third Reich for a long time and for me it is one of the few nations in history that really inspires me, much like Jefferson and other idealists were inspired by 18th century France. It was a nation of incredible imagination and with an incredible vision for the future of western civilization.

Here is a window into that future....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9gBtzXUy5E"]National Socialist Parade - YouTube[/ame]

So without any context it's easy to understand why it is a hated nation. Everything has been kept from the public with the exception of what allegedly took place during a time of Total War. The Germans were an incredible people, with incredible philosophers and artists and an incredible history. The Third Reich was the final culmination of all of this.

It's unfortunate that everything developed as it did. The West would be a much different place today. As would the world for that matter.

 

I'm not sure. Should we ask this question of the Allies or just Germany?

 

Both, the difference between the two is premeditation in my opinion.

The atrocities committed in Berlin and occupied Germany at the end of the war were inexcuseable and often overlooked. But having been to Dachau, Auschwitz and Berkineau, seen numerous films of them getting liberated and studied History and read numerous books on the issue I'm not sure how you can deny these claims.

6 Million numbers are being revised because they used to state that that was how many Jewish captives were processed the gas chambers, which was an incorrect statement since many were worked to death, died en route, were beaten before being taken captive etc. That number also included those who were not of Jewish decent but were deemed to be part of the Final Solution.

The atrocities committed by the Russians during the war were far more numerous in terms of human death, but were not nearly as organized or premediated as those committed by Nazis against Jews, gays, gypsies and political opposition.

 

So, assuming all of the horror stories thrown on Germany's lap are true (which i'll go with purely for the sake of argument), the Russians and Allies are morally superior because they killed many more people in more painful and gruesome ways and the Germans killed less in what was essentially (again, assuming truth) a less painful albeit `efficient` manner?

I can't have another one of these conversations. They're just too stupid and I don't feel like facing down a pitch fork mob. I'll just close by repeating what I already said: I find the nation and vision incredibly imaginative and inspiring.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TJ16TI56c"]wiggers compilation - YouTube[/ame]

The above civilization is not something that appeals to me. If it's what you think the pinnacle of society is, and a grand direction for the West, that is your own affair.

The Soviet Union was a wholly evil state. Be glad you weren't in a fight to the death with it on its border and hope you never see another like it return.

 

I admire many aspects of Nazi Germany, economically, militarily (they were (*)(*)(*)(*)ed good) but where I can have absolutely no admiration is the issue of the Final Solution..

I'm not sure why you believe it has to be an all or nothing thing. You can condemn both sides for their atrocities, you don't have to deny Nazi Germany's just because you admire certain aspects of its society.

I'm not a pitch fork mob, I'm one person using logic and facts to have a discussion with you.

 

By all means, ask it of everyone.

So by putting 'death camps' in quotes, are you saying that were no death camps? And what I mean by 'death camps' is 'places where they sent people to die.'

 

Absolute truth doesn't exist.

However, if you look at the evidence of the holocaust, the Nazis themselves convicted themselves with their own documents, unless you believe that the Allies were able to fabricate many of these documents, which to this day hand writing experts, etc will state were written by various Nazis where we have their writings to use to compare.

 

There were numerous different types of camps.

Auschwitz for example consisted of 3 main camps and something like 30 minor camps. The main camps consisted of a concentration camp, a work camp and an extermination camp. Upon arriving at the extermination camp you were dead relatively quickly.

This area gets tricky for people because people think all of Auschwitz was a death camp and that the inmates arriving to be gassed saw the sign, translated, Work makes you free. This though wasn't on the death camp gates, gates which those arriving at the death camp never saw, let alone the one on another camp.

 

ridiculous,no evidence for any gas camp....it not hard to fool people when they dont understand that their media is completely controlled.

 

The Jews do nothing but lie,lie and victimize themselves...They were crying about 6 million dying in a Holocaust decades before the war started....

1919 article by N.Y. Governor Martin L. Glynn.."The Crucifixion of the Jews Must Stop.""......Oct 31st 1919, The American Hebrew

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop.htm

The scam really isnt too complicated. You see skeletal people,and corpses lying around...Well ,you see, typhus ,and malnutrition do that to people.and what do you do with people when there is no fuel?...And the ground is hard as cement...you know frozen??? You cant do much till spring comes,then you bull doze em.... The allied air war bombed supply lines...This was only in a few camps that this occurred...

 

Okay, well I proposed that the idea of an all blonde haired/blue eyed 'race' was most likely total myth, and, of course, I showed that the ghoulish allegation of using the fat from dead Jews, to make soap, to be entirely false.

Interestingly enough, this soap myth was still being perpetuated at the 'holocaust museum', as little as ten years ago.

In other words, for the bulk of years, the idea that Nazi's turned Jews into bars of soap, sounded entirely abhorent, yet was entirely false.

Under those circumstances, I think any reasonable person would ask that if the soap that was being touted as solid historical evidence of German barbarity, only to be shown to be merely soap, what other taken for granted and unchallenged 'evidence' is still being touted and exhibited? Or passed off as education?

I happen to think truth and accuracy are important, in all things, don't you?

I too have heard that the number of 'six million' has been revised, and more than once.

Who was first to make the claim of it being specifically six million?

What evidence of that figure did said person have to then see it taken on, as irrefutable fact?

Isn't the number six significant, in some way, in Judaism?

*Shrugs*

 

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.

Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors. [1]

Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." [2] And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, [3] confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered." [4]
Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.

As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as follows: [5]

Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...

Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few countries and few times have experienced.

Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." [6]

Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.

Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of extermination through starvation in the German camps.
No 'Human Skin' Lampshades

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks," whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch, dubbed by journalists the "(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) of Buchenwald," who was reported to have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of luckless inmates.

But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." [7] In an interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that it was goat flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial." [8] Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German jail in 1967.

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/libcamps.shtml

 

ALLIED MILITARY POLICE HEADQUARTERS...VIENNA... JAN 10th , 1948.

Memo Nr: 31/48

"The Allied Committee of Inquiry has to date proven that no poison gas was ever used to kill prisoners in the following concentration camps......

Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau,Flossenburg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen, and satellite camps..Natzweller,Neuengamme, Niederhagen(Wewelsberg), Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthoff, Theresienstadt, In all cases where gassings were alleged, it COULD BE PROVEN THAT TORTURE WAS USED TO EXTRACT CONFESSIONS, AND WITNESSES HAVE LIED. Any former inmate who,during their debriefing continues to allege that Poison gas was used to murder people(in particular Jews) are to be reported to this office, and if they insist on lying further, they are to be charged with perjury."

Signed Major Miller
Commanding Officer..Allied Military Police Vienna

witnessed by: Lieutenant Lachout MP



(COMITE INTERNATIONAL DE LA CROIX-ROGUE)
Not only that the International Red Cross had people stationed at each camp, and upon Hitler's insistence delegations made routine inspections of the camps...conferring that there was adequate food, hospital care,postal services, and mistreatment was rare, There were no murders or gassings...This is confirmed in testimony and writing as late as Jan 11th, 1989 in a civil case in Canada. However seeing that the Red Cross was formed by the Rothschilds, pressure from the top soon sealed lips, and in fact apologies were given.

 

To some people posting..

you can't have sympathy for "a nation" etc. Only individuals.

 

1919
" From across the sea 6,000,000 men and women are calling to us for help....6,000,000 men and women are dying ...in the threatened HOLOCAUST of human life....6,000,000 famished men and women..." 1919 Oct 31st 1919 THE AMERICAN HEBREW "The Crucifixion of the Jews must stop" p.582...Governor of N.Y. Martin H. Glynn

1900
Leading Jewish figure in America Stephen Wise"There are 6 million living,bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism"............NEW YORK TIMES June 11th,1900 Rabbi Wise's Address p.7

1915
Louis Marshall "In the world today there about 13,000,000 Jews,of whom more than 6,000,000 are in the heart of the war zone; Jews who's lives are at stake,and who today are subjected to every manner of suffering and sorrow." NEW YORK TIMES Jan 14th 1915 p.3 ...."Jews indifference to war aide rebuked"

1919......... Felix Warburg ..."Jews suffered worst from war...poverty ,starvation disease of 6,000,000 souls

1936 March 5th.... Chaim Weizman President World Zionist Orginization testified in front of an appeals commission..."It is no exaggeration to say that 6,000,000 are sentenced to be imprisoned in this part of the world."

 

'Unfortunate' is subjective.

It was certainly unfortunate for the great many that died, in battle or otherwise, a waste of human life is never good.

But there have been those that gained.

Imo, Israel never would have been established in 1948, had it not been for European 'guilt' over the reported deaths and perseuction of so many Jews.

So, for that reason to start with, I curse Hitler for playing right into the hands of the elite Zionists, had he not created conditions in which this was to happen (to whatever degree), then powerful and political Zionists would never have been able to manufacture Israel.

And look what Israel is today - it is ironic that some weep for the children of the Nazi actions, yet they shed no tears for the non Jewish children that Zionist Jews in Israel abuse, each and every day.

This, to me, makes their morals and values bogus, for there is discrimination.

I do not discriminate.

Thus, I would consistantly be able to say that what happened to many kids in Germany during that time was abhorent, but that the treatement of non Jewish kids by IDF soldiers, does not put Israel or Jews in a position to take the moral high ground.

It is like the abused have become the abusers, but rather than lash out at those that did abuse them, they lash out at those that didn't.

If Israel were a psychitatric condition, eh..

 

Is that not key though?

While no killing can be deemed 'good', surely it is worse for me to be responsible for the death of 1000 babies, rather than just one, even if the one was more calculated?

 

Hang on, stop!

That there were many in internment camps that died from the things you have cited - that is not in question.

Yes they did, and lots of them.

But isn't the point that if you create conditions in which disease is liable to be rife, then you are culpable for resultant deaths? In other words, if masses of people had not been interned in camps that were not designed to take that number, then the whole thing would be moot, would it not?

What were they even doing in internment camps? Can it ever be a crime to be a gypsy, or a socialist, or a Jew? Not to my mind.

 

I'm not sure how one is tied to the other, which was the point of my comment.

Can't you condemn both? Is it one or the other only?

This discussion is sick "It's okay to kill a bunch of people selectively based on race, political affiliation or sexual orientation is a systematic way because the other side killed more".

Sick.

 

You miss my point.

That is what is happening now.

Both, and many other examples, are terrible, yet it seems to many that only one is given particular attention, in the media, and in school.

I am agreeing with you, I don't think it should be that way.

 

I don't know about you and the American education system but I learned about Soviet atrocities before, during and after the war as much as I learned about the Holocaust.

If you want an example, I read "The Diaries of Berlin" in my last year of high school, it remains the most hideous and yet memorable book I ever read I'm still appalled by it today.

Just because the media focus's on something doesn't mean that it reflects the views of society as a whole. I'm sure more people know about the 20+ million people who died during Collectivization and WWII (I know you can cite higher figures, I go with the numbers you can academically prove) than you realize.

The difference here is the focus on Israel in the United States and therefore an increased focus on the Holocaust as a result (since it was the predicate for the creation of Isreal). If you lived in Eastern Europe, you'd know far more about Soviet atrocities, Africa you'd know about Rwanda, Asia you'd know about the Khmer Rouge, etc etc etc.

That's not to say one is worse than the other, it just means one might be more relevant to paticular societies.

 

I am Scottish.

At school, far more attention was afforded to Jewish suffering, than any other suffering.

I do not watch a lot on television, however, the like of 'History' never tires of yet another docum that involves Jews going onto trains.

I do not see the same exposure afforded to any others. Why not? I do not believe that there would not be interest, so there must be a reason why one is elevated above all others, no?