Immigration policy, both legal and illegal, is an issue on which a consensus has not emerged in this country. It's multi-faceted. The subject involves a host of issues including, but not limited to, economic, demographic, environmental, educational, criminal/judicial/public safety, civil liberties, national security, labor and unemployment, political, ethical/moral/legal and cultural aspects. The forces that propel people to come to America involve both foreign and domestic special interests. Some legal immigrants are very highly skilled, e.g., the Indian and Chinese immigrants to Silicon Valley. Some immigrants come here permanently and some temporarily. Immigration has also risen to the level of the balance of power between the executive and legislative branches of the federal government. The Dream Act is an example of the changing balance of power. My wife is a legal immigrant to the United States. Had she not immigrated to America we would never have met. We live in a transitional neighborhood with many illegal aliens and their children. We have seen the impact of legal and illegal immigration first hand. Generally, I support legal immigration to the United States to the extend it does not cause unemployment among American citizens and legal residents. I oppose all illegal immigration to the US without equivocation. While I have created this thread for Jeff and myself to discuss this broad subject, there is no restriction on the right of other forum members to register their own opinions.
California is my home. Most illegal immigrants here are Mexican citizens or Central Americans. Let's focus on Mexico. That country is ruled politically, economically, and judicially by an elite composed of a few thousand primarily white families. The primary interest of the Mexican elite is to maintain their stranglehold on power in all of its dimensions. Unfortunately maintenance of the status quo in Mexico means that there is a vast Mestizo population which is kept in ignorance and poverty as the resources of the country are arrogated to the elite. The population of Mexico was about 14 million people at the time of the 1910 revolution. Because of Mexican culture the population of the country is now about 110 million. In order to avoid another revolution Mexico's elite must have a safety valve to release the pent up pressure of ignorance and poverty. That is where Los Estados Unidos comes in. The self-interest of the Mexican elite coincides with the self-interest of Big Business employers of unskilled labor in America. Big Business is interested in low cost disposable employees who won't create problems for employers. The self-interest of the Mexican elite and Big Business employers in America coincides with the Open Borders left which seeks demographic change in America in order to propel it to permanent power in America. I would call this alliance of self-interest a marriage made in hell.
I liked your post Albert. One of my irritations about immigration policy is the faux outrage by politicians on both the right and left- it is my opinion that neither political party wishes to address the very real issue of immigration policy- both what should be our legal immigration policy and how to deal with those who are currently illegal. My position is not that far from Albert's but I think we will find areas that we disagree seriously. 1) Illegal immigration is a national security issue- we do not have a secure border if millions of people can come here every year. We need to allocate the resources to stop the illegal immigration. I am opposed to a 'wall' but I am in favor of putting as many border guards and electronic devices as we need to stop the flow. 2) A lot of our economy depends on the labor provided by our current illegal immigrants. I know people with argue with me- but let me say- I don't want our economy to depend on illegal labor- but it is. And I think that is wrong. We need a rational policy to provide the low cost migrant labor to farms and industries that Americans will not provide the labor- and where they are not competing with U.S. labor. Yes to farm workers- no to migrant carpenters. NO migrant workers should be in any position that there are existing U.S. skilled labor- carpenters- plumbers- cooks- migrants are working in these positions because a) they are cheaper and b) they are less trouble than Americans. We need to change that. 3) I advocate a program to allow existing illegals who have no criminal records to transition to transition to legal temporary workers but with no opportunity to become U.S. citizens. None. Anyone who wants the security of U.S. citizenship- or even a permanent Green card must come here legally- but give those who are here the opportunity and responsibility to work legally and above the radar. And heck- I would even be in favor of voter ID so that no illegals could possibly vote, though that is largely a bogeyman. 4) Employers must be held responsible to hire only legal employees- Employers must be given the means to easily verify eligiblity and then verification must be mandatory. Much like amnesty for current illegals, employers must be given a grace period to adopt the proper procedures then firm penalties must be assessed, including using Sarbanes Oxly to hold top management criminally accountable. 5) Somewhat out of order- we have a need for skilled workers too- which is why we end up with computer engineers from India and nurses from Jamaica. BUT- that should alway be considered a temporary problem- if we allow companies to import skilled labor, we should charge for worker training programs to develope Americans for those type of positions. We want skilled immigrants to come in, but we don't want companies have incentives to displace existing Americans with less expensive foreign migrant workers- mandate that workers here on skilled worker visas be paid not only market rates but a surcharge tax be levied to make them slightly more expensive and those dollars go into developing American talent. In summary, we are an aging nation- we need migrants. We have a large demand for unskilled agricultural workers and food processing workers. But we also need secure borders and a rational-sane discussion of how to accomplish both.
I agree in someway- but not only "Big Business" but almost all business- look at small builders picking up day workers, look at construction crews, look in the kitchen of most resteraunts. i disagree with your concept that the left 'seeks a demographic' change so much as the ideals of the left lead to the conclusion that much of the left feels they need to 'protect' Mexican illegals from abuse- and coincidentally that has become a power base.
I am out of here until tomorrow Albert. I fully expect by then this thread will have been hijacted by frothing at the mouth extremists from both the right and the left.
I agree with most of what Jeff says. That surprises me. I'm going to take some time to think about a response to Jeff's posts. In the meantime others are welcome to post here as long as they don't say anything stupid. If someone says something stupid...the Honey Badger will get you.
You're right. Everyone has gotten into the act of hiring illegal aliens. It kills me to see skilled American construction workers sit around while illegal aliens take their jobs. American workers have to come first. I must disagree. If what you say were true there would be no Sanctuary Cities. You and I both live in Sanctuary Cities, but San Francisco is a pretend Sanctuary City because most illegals have been gentrified out of town. I live in the real deal and it has brought a horde of impoverished and ignorant people to the area. Some are good, some are bad. Their presence is muy malo. Most work so hard that they have no time to raise their children. That's how the gangs get hold of their kids. Besides, Mexican criminals are now coming illegally to the state because they can blend in without notice. Their was a big takedown of one of Mexico's Most Wanted in Watsonville a couple of weeks ago. SWAT Teams were everywhere with that vato. Illegal aliens have no social capital with which to guide their children. As a result their children get warehoused and processed by public schools like poultry on the way to KFC. Moreover, and estimated $10 billion is wired to Mexico from California each year, and the impoverished peons turn to California social services which means dependence on some form of the dole. Three weeks ago a carload of cholos chased two white teenagers down my street around midnight. The kids pounded on my neighbors door because the lights were on. They begged for sanctuary so they wouldn't get killed. The gangbangers were parked right in front of my driveway watching until I turned the outdoor lights on. Then they pulled away. Then there is Jaime Guevara who used to be in the neighborhood until he shot two guys in the head and killed them. He's an illegal alien who came here to live la vida loco. The upshot is that illegals more often than not raise gangbangers. Not acceptable. This has radicalized me and made me very unreasonable. If a govt. can't protect its citizens it has no reason to exist. But nothing can be done in politically correct California where illegals are very welcome by the powers that be...the powers of the left.
See- we can agree on somethings! I think frankly it comes down to two things- first is money- illegals will work for less but there is a second that isn't talked about as much- those Mexican laborers are just (*)(*)(*)(*)ed hard workers. Many of them grew up on farms doing hard labor, and they tend to be quality employees- show up on time, work hard and don't complain. Doesn't change my mind about what we should do but employers are acting rationally, given our essential lack of enforcement against hiring illegals. I am against the Sanctuary City concept, but I don't think that proves your point. And frankly you are just wrong about the population in SF, the hispanic population of SF is still growing, and we of course also have a large segment of illegal Chinese and Europeans(Irish in particular). So we should change it so that they are not illegals and they have social capital. Bring them to legitimacy, ensure that they have health insurance so they aren't burdeining our emergency rooms and any illegals who attempt to claim any welfare should be deported. I have no problem with money being wired back to Mexico- as long as they are earning that money legally. . I know you feel that way Albert- and I agree that there is a real and serious problem with Latino gangs in California. I disagree with the premise that the majority of the children of illegals end up that way. More importantly, though to me, is a rational immigration policy- and i agree in Calfornia, politicians are way to the left. But immigration is a national issue, and both sides are just using the issue, and not dealing with it.
The Mestizos who immigrant illegally are family people who work hard and who don't value education. That is what distinguishes them from East Asians and South Asians. There are well educated Mexicans with lots of social capital. They live in Mexico. The dregs of Mexican society immigrant illegally to America. America needs automation to replace low skilled labor. America needs to educate Americans with proficiency. Immigration to America must be legal and it must be on America's terms. America has no need to import the impoverished and ignorant from Mexico and Central America. It weakens America. America needs legal immigrants with social capital, human capital, and investment capital. The only thing that matters is what improves the lives of American citizens. Capitalism is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If employers destroy the body politic in order to pursue profits they must be punished in a draconian manner. Imprisonment is proper treatment for such employers. The Latino population of San Francisco is packed into the Tenderloin neighborhood living in third world conditions. They service people like you the way the peons of Caracas and Bogota service the patrons. Ultimately they will be gentrified out of the City. No illegal alien is acceptable under any circumstance. But Chinese illegals don't gangbang. The days of the Wah Ching and Joe Boys are over. The Irish illegals are miniscule. Nevertheless they deserve to get the heave ho. Where will the money come from? America is broke and its economy is no longer efficient. Places like the Central Valley are like the deep interior of Mexico...impoverished and ignorant. The Central Valley is like the Roman province of Dacia after the immigration of the Goths. Conditions became so bad that ultimately the Romans were forced to evacuate the province. If we are going to help people let it be the African American Underclass...not campesinos from Jalisco, Guerrero, Michoacan, Sinaloa and Chiapas. African Americans are Americans. The campesinos might as well be Martians who fell off the turnip truck. You presume the American public schools can be reformed. This is the flaw in your analysis. The kids of illegals are failed by their parents who fell off the turnip truck and by the public schools which are controlled by self-interested parties who will prevent any meaningful reform. Btw, the kids of many illegals have now grown up and are raising kids of their own. Ignorance begets ignorance. I live with them and see it first hand. You are a distant observer. Screw that. Put a fifty percent excise tax on those funds and give the money to the Oakland Police Dept. Do you have a factual basis for your disagreement? My opinion is based on contact with these folks. You live in a world of whites and Chinese. It's an antiseptic existence. I live where the real action is. A rational immigration policy would be nice, but it is not meant to be because people like me don't believe in the good faith of those who advocate for amnesty. We were fooled once before with the Simpson-Mazzoli Immigration Act in the Eighties. America will not digest illegal immigrants and their children and grandchildren because assimilation is dead. The schools teach multiculturalism. Multiculturalism means separate identities. Separate identities creates balkanization. Balkanization means that there will be no social cohesion. Lack of social cohesion means there will be strife. Strife fosters factionalism. Do you remember what Alexis de Tocqueville predicted about factionalism and America?
why are we even letting in those degenerate mexicans? they are undermenschen and pollute our pure aryan race! they are taking our jobs! they are just criminal drug pushers! Meh, hope that'll suffice as a mouth frothing right-wing extremist comment, seeing as no one else really cares about your thread
Yes, I have noticed quite a difference between the ones who immigrated legally and the ones that illegally snuck through the border. But again, the immigration situation in the USA is quite different from that in Europe. At least the ones in the USA are hard working, however much they end up costing the taxpayers in education and healthcare. I also noticed that the types of crime are different too. While there are plenty of Mexican youth gang shootings, for the most part the violence is not really too bad; it is just all the stealing. In the ethnic Latino neighborhoods, anything not securely locked away and bolted down will dissappear the next morning.
