Important question to arabs / muslims here in the forum.

I doubt he is Palestinian, he just wants people here to think that. Its rare for these people to be constantly online talking to westerners.

And why does all this make you tell me Im a Palestinian?

 

The flag near your nick-name maybe ??

 

Couldnt that merely signify my support for these people? Is that too nuanced for you?

 

Yes.
That's too nuanced for me.

 

Too bad, dont bother trying to tell people where they come from. Youre here to politely discuss issues of the day, thats all.

 

Don't you eat, work, sleep, take a break ?
Your comments are 24/7 .... Strange...

 

Yes youve guessed it, Im a paid Islamist agent from Ramallah.....

 

No peace will be reached until the Israeli and United States government cease in engaging in hegemonist expansion into Arab territory, settles for 2-state settlement or dissolution of the entity of Israel and the inclusion of Palestinians, and ceases in the oppression of the Palestinian people. Israel is basically a fabricated entity propped up by its United States patron for the Western world, governing for joint nationalistic self interest. It seeks to expand and oppress the Palestinian opposition in favor of power, engaging in illegal settlement and brutal attacks that only lead to great human suffering creating intense hatred and conflict inflammation. The conflict will continue to exist and only heighten its magnitude as long as Israeli power seeks to fight fire with fire in the name of power.

 

OK.
I hope they pay you well

 

Your pro arab view is well written, but you didn't answer the direct question - WILL YOU ACCEPT FULL PEACE AND CONFLICT ENDING WITH ISRAEL IF ABU MAZEN WILL REACH AN AGREEMENT AND UNDERSTANDING WITH THEM ??
No theories, just answer YES or NO.

 

I wouldn't really call it a "Pro-Arab" view exactly, I would call it a pro-human view in which the best interests of humanity is looked out for by being on the side of the oppressed Palestinian civilian victims of state warfare. The answer to your question all depends on what kind of agreement or understanding he reaches. The people and their supporters should call for change until justice reigns true. This shouldn't be a "YES or NO" question; change should be continued to be worked towards until the Palestinian people are given a voice and the opportunity to speak for their own will and their own best interests. The people must be granted power over their own lives. Change must be pushed for until the people are granted freedom of Israeli oppression, a justifiably democratic government with systems of justice, compensation for the damages inflicted by Israeli power, and power over, or at least access to through coexistence, the home they were forced to leave behind.

 

Why, thank you for liking my post! But, I am a confused man, how did you do that? Are you a wizard Islamist agent?

 

If what you wrote is a pro-human view for BOTH SIDES.. i would agree with you.
Is it ???? NO.

 

This is not a retort that sustains the Jewish present ideology...
Professor Kedar of Bar Ilan university has written the following :

There is though one element in the concept proposed below that raises
concern.

Dr. Kedar does not propose "autonomous mini-states" but instead "independent
mini-states".

Yes, these would be land locked. But I for one have a tremendous respect
for the intelligence and ingenuity of our Arab neighbors. Suffice it to say
that I would expect them to seek to exploit their sovereignty to the
maximum.

The question is not if the residents of Nablus share a national identity
that transcends their local identity. The question instead is if the
resident of Nablus share a goal with the residents of Jenin, Ramallah,
Jericho, Tul-Karm, Kalkilya, the Arab part of Hebron and the Gaza Strip.

They most certainly do: the destruction of the Jewish State.

And creating independent mini-states would provide these
municipalities/regions with a considerably greater ability to reach that
goal than they have today.

"Autonomous mini-states" - interesting idea. But I fear that "independent
mini-states" is playing with fire.

Even as a tactical move it might be problematic as it would constitute
acceptance of the concept of a sovereign independent Palestinian entity.
Granted, PM Binyamin Netanyahu has already crossed this Rubicon. But most
of the Likud leadership (and Bayit Yehudi) hasn't. ]

THE EIGHT STATE SOLUTION
A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE FOR THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL
DEVELOPED BY DR. MORDECHAI KEDAR FROM BAR-ILAN UNIVERSITY
info@PalestinianEmirates.com
www.PalestinianEmirates.com

Israel faces three immediate threats today: the possibility of a nuclear
Iran, well over 100,000 rockets and mortars poised from three directions
(Iran, Lebanon, Gaza plus terrorists in Syria and Egypt) and the Two State
Solution.

The first two threats seem obvious, but why do we think that the Two State
Solution could lead to the demise of our beloved Israel? After all, it's
been the mainstay policy thrust upon Israel with various international
initiatives and roadmaps to peace. But in reality it would bring about the
opposite result.

The creation of an artificial Palestinian state requiring the uprooting of
Jewish families where no Arab population currently exists would lead to
indefensible borders for the Jewish homeland. The more moderate PA and Fatah
want a Palestinian state as a precursor for the ultimate demise of Israel.
Hamas remains opposed to any agreement which establishes a border
recognizing the Israeli state. Any proposed re-unification between Hamas and
Fatah is an obvious ploy that further threatens the survival of Israel and
the Jewish people. The recent attacks against Israel by Hamas are now
coordinated with the militant pro-Syrian, Iran-backed Islamic Jihad. Plus
the Popular Resistance Committee is yet another terrorist group operating
from Gaza.

The Arab Spring has brought about a much less stable region. Israel can no
longer allow the rest of the world to dictate policy that makes it more
difficult for the Jewish nation to survive. Israel must declare it’s own
independent solution with regards to the so-called Palestinian movement and
militant jihadism that appears to be on the accendancy. Doing nothing only
invites intervention from abroad.

Prior to statehood in 1948 the larger territory was known as the British
Mandate of Palestine. The Jewish people, who have been on this land
continuously for 3,285 years, were often referred to as the Palestinians
from the early 1920's until statehood in 1948. Here are just two examples
that prove this important distinction. The Palestine Post was founded by an
American Jew in December 1932 in the Mandate of Palestine and supported the
struggle for a Jewish Homeland. In 1950, two years after the State of Israel
was declared, the paper was renamed The Jerusalem Post. And what started as
the Palestine Symphony Orchestra is known today as the Israel Philharmonic
Orchestra.

The Arabs who emigrated to the territory in the late 1800's and early 1900's
to live and prosper among the Jews never wanted to be recognized as the
Palestinians until it became a convenient tool in their opposition to the
Jewish Homeland. In 1964 the PLO was formed which finally transformed the
mantle of Palestinian from the pre-statehood Jews to the post-statehood
Arabs.

Historically there never existed an Arab or Islamic state of Palestine with
a capital in Jerusalem. The capital of "Jund Falastin" ("The District of
Palestine") under the Islamic 7th century occupation was the city of Ramle,
30 kilometers to the west of Jerusalem. It is very important that this
historical truth be recognized as a basis for peace.

There is no Occupied territory west of the Jordan River. There is Disputed
territory as a result of wars thrust upon Israel by jealous Arab neighbors.
Today Arabs live within the State of Israel and in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.
These Arab population centers are not going away and neither is the State of
Israel.

Gaza is already a state-like entity, since Hamas took it over by force from
the PLO in June 2007, thus breaking the Palestinian Authority into two
separate entities. If Israel is forced to leave Judea and Samaria as part of
a peace agreement, it becomes very possible that the more militant Hamas
would eventually take over from the current PA/Fatah regime just as they did
in Gaza, either by elections or by force. No one can guarantee otherwise.

Due to tribal rifts and local patriotism there will never be a successful
unity government among the Palestinian Arab population centers in Judea and
Samaria or Gaza. Like the PLO in the past, the PA/Fatah and Hamas do not
represent the true ambitions of the majority of peaceful Arabs who just want
a better future for their children within a traditional framework and local
governance. The failed Two State Solution is rapidly heading to the dustbin
of history where it belongs.

Successful Arab leadership must be independent, local and firmly rooted with
a traditional and homogenous sociological foundation. Israel and the world
should recognize and support local leadership in the Arab Palestinian
population centers that desire lasting peaceful relations as independent
city-states. Because of ongoing corruption and an overt anti-Israel agenda,
the leaders of the PLO, PA/Fatah and Hamas have devoted almost a half
century in a futile attempt to eliminate Israel and destroy all that her
citizens have accomplished.

The eight city-states would comprise the areas of Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah,
Jericho, Tul-Karm, Kalkilya, the Arab part of Hebron and the Gaza strip.
Local residents would become citizens of these eight independent countries.
Any Arab leadership that attempts to circumvent or dominate the development
of these Palestinian Emirates would inhibit a future of security and
economic opportunity for the citizens of these eight independent countries.

The Arab refugee situation can only be solved if there is lasting stability
in the region. In 1948 approximately 500,000 Arabs were uprooted in advance
of an Arab attack on Israel. At the same time about 850,000 Jews were thrown
out of neighboring Arab countries, and most of the Jewish refugees
successfully resettled in Israel. The Arab refugees have since been
discriminated against by the Arab countries in the region in conjunction
with the biased policies of UNRWA, so not a single Arab refugee has ever
been resettled. The former director of the refugee agency in Jordan, Sir
Alexander Galloway, actually stated, “The Arab nations do not want to solve
the Arab refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore… as a weapon
against Israel.” The obvious failure of the peace initiatives, which have
been based on false assumptions for so many decades, has only perpetuated
the Arab refugee problem and human suffering.

Complex problems require simple, workable solutions. The development of the
Palestinian Emirates is a viable alternative based on the sociology of the
different clans and tribes in Gaza, Judea and Samaria. This initiative will
bring about a stable peace to the region and added security for Israel.

Thank you for supporting the development of the eight independent
Palestinian Emirates.

--------------------------------------------
IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

Tell me how it isn't. I don't endorse the murder of Israeli civilians or the oppresion of Israelis, but rather justly brought fair and balanced change. Tell me how being against oppression is unfavorable to the best interests of humanity. Tell me how respecting human rights, living in peace and allowing Palestinians the right to live is unfavorable to the Israeli people. Tell me how being for democracy, freedoms, and justice is against the human will. Allowing the Palestinian people a voice and allowing them power over their own individual lives is far from unfavorable.

 

Sorry lol.. I carefully read AGAIN your comment and it is not balanced.
Have you been lately in Israel ? Or Ramallah ?
Some opinions are influenced by the media.. ( that's what the Islamic paid propganda 5 forum members here are trying
to do 24/7 , to twist the truth and to brain wash people with lies ).
Tell me why last month Israelis found 3 palestinians in a Taxi toward Tel-aviv with 3 explosive belts in the trunk ?
Israelis do not want to live like the stupid Europians ( i'm one of them ), we lost the battle to Muslims... Have you
been lately in Paris ?? ( you'll think you're travelling in Amman or Beirut )....
I'm glad you do not endorse the murder of Israeli civilians or their oppresion, BUT the other side does not agree with you.
Arabs want to throw Israelis to the sea . Period.
Israelis are defending their ONLY jewish state, Arabs and Muslims have 52 states !!

 

Tell me again : Click on this link and let us discuss it

http://tinyurl.com/a4ssmvk

 

Some opinions are influenced by the media and nationalistic or special interest propaganda. In fact, the majority of public opinion is. It's a convenient propaganda tool. Propaganda is to a democracy as violence is to a totalitarian state. In American media, for example, the media is frequently used to evoke anti-Arab sentiment by selectively covering and skewing topics in order to comply with United States interests. Just as any other nation, including Israel, will use corporate owned or state-run media to further the interests of the owner; the nation and the powerful. The media leads the people into ignorance and submission, support and obedience. It is the propaganda model.

Hamas may not agree with me about peace, but even though the media may tell you otherwise, many Palestinian opinion polls show that the Palestinian people in fact do. The Palestinians have other concerns and priorities than the destruction of Israel. The majority of the population supports nonviolent resistance or peace negotiations rather than violent actions and terrorism.

From: http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx


From: http://www.pcpo.org/polls.htm
"Dr. Kukali further said that the majority of the Palestinian people still support the resumption of the peace negotiations with Israel. As indication thereto, the majority were in favor of the resumption of the exploratory talks held in Amman under Jordanian custody between the Palestinian and the Israeli negotiators.

The Findings:

The best ways to end the occupation:
And on the question:” Which, in your opinion, is the best way to end the occupation and establish the Palestinian State ?”, (15.4 %) answered “the peace negotiations till a deal is concluded between the Palestinians and the Israelis”, (26.0 %) “the nonviolent resistance (the popular Intifada)”, (14.4 %) “the work through the United Nations”, (29.4 %) “holding an international conference that impose the solution on all parties involved “, (13.5 %) “violent actions” and (1.3 %) said “I don’t know”.

The future peace perspective:
And on the question: “Now let’s have a look at the future when your children will become in your age. Do you think that there would be at that time peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians ?” (14.2 %) answered “definitely”, (23.1 %) “likely”, (32.9 %) “possibly”, (14.6 %) “unlikely”, (12.7 %) “certainly no”, and (2.5 %) said “I don’t know”.

The citizen’s main concern:
And responding to the question:” What is your main concern at present ?”, (39.6 %) answered “the job / the money”, (22.4 %) “the security”, (14.3 %) “the health” and (23.7 %) “the future”."

Arabs in the Gaza strip live in a region under pressure. Israeli force is used to retain power, leading to pressured opposition. The Israeli nation is opposed due to policies of aggression. In a region under intense pressure, Palestinians turn to places of power and authority for guidance. The oppressed people find comfort in the security brought by radical militant groups. Groups only supported for security, not for carrying out the true Palestinian will for peace.

Why did they find Palestinians with explosives in Europe? Because there is retaliation to oppression. There is popular opposition to forced change and forced submission. Regardless of whether or not it is justified, revenge is a human emotion. It is an inevitable outcome, a chemical reaction.

They don't have to be hated. It is their policies that cause the hatred. Policies consisting of forcing people to abide by the powerful's commands inevitably lead to opposition. It is the Israeli government's unwillingness in engaging in or committing to ceasefire and methodic terroristic activities that lead to this nightmare. When Israel supports cooperation and peace and respects the Palestinian people much of the problems will be solved and much of the opposition will be diminished. If these war-mongering and expansionist policies of the nation of Israel are ceased and cooperation is followed, the pressure, chaos, and aggression will be lost.

 

DON'T WORRY, MOMMA AND POPPA! I AM GOOD BUS DRIVER. I TAKE KIDS TO SCHOOL SAFE AND SOUND.

ALLALLALLALLALLAA!

 

In September, 1783, Algerians attacked the American convoy sailing home from peace talks with Great Britain.
In other words, as soon as the United States became a separate nation, it was attacked by Muslims.
Of course, colonial US shipping was attacked before that, as were all nations.
And, these attacks continued for the next 35 years until the United States finally put and end to this form of piracy; kidnapping and torture by North African Islamic States.
As the US grew in power and capability, the severity of the attacks by Arabs and Muslims lessened as the US demonstrated it would deal harshly with attacks on its citizens or its national interests. However, both US interests and its citizens were still sporadically attacked or kidnapped by various disparate Arabs or Muslims.
You may be familiar with the Marine anthem - "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."?

 

"Moishe - Are you refering to the Barbary (Berber ) Pirates ? If so then you've left out some important facts i.e. Newly Independent US had no treaties with Nth African states thus its ships was fair game to pirates .- nothing AFAI can tell to do with religion - any more than previous Spanish pirates raids on British shipping + v.v.,


Here're a few facts :

"During the American Revolution, the pirates attacked American ships. On December 20, 1777, Morocco's Sultan Mohammed III declared that the American merchant ships would be under the protection of the sultanate and could thus enjoy safe passage into the Mediterranean and along the coast. The Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship stands as the U.S.'s oldest non-broken friendship treaty with a foreign power.[B] In 1787 Morocco had been one of the first nations to recognize the United States[/B].
---
In 1783 and 1784 it was the turn of Spaniards to bombard Algiers. The second time, Admiral Barceló damaged the city so severely that the Algerian Dey asked Spain to negotiate a peace treaty and from then on Spanish vessels and coasts were safe for several years.

Until the American Declaration of Independence in 1776, British treaties with the North African states protected American ships from the Barbary corsairs. Morocco, which in 1777 was the first independent nation to publicly recognize the United States, became in 1784 the first Barbary power to seize an American vessel after independence. The Barbary threat led directly to the creation of the United States Navy in March 1794. While the United States managed to secure peace treaties, these obliged it to pay tribute for protection from attack. Payments in ransom and tribute to the Barbary states amounted to 20% of United States government annual expenditures in 1800.[21] The First Barbary War in 1801 and the Second Barbary War in 1815 led to more favorable peace terms ending the payment of tribute. However, Algiers broke the 1805 peace treaty after only two years, and subsequently refused to implement the 1815 treaty until compelled to do so by Britain in 1816.
--

It was a time of swings and roundabouts . Barbary pirates was just better known than America's homegrown Pirates operating out of Charleston + River pirates on Mississippi valley/Ohio + St Louis rivers. who robbed - murdered - river travellers.

- One of my earliest ambitions/ Saturday matinee dreams - was to be a swashbuckler like Errol Flyn - Capt Kidd, etc. (wink) .

 

So you found one group but had to go back a few hundred years and then, they weren't attacking America as such, just any ship they saw a profit in attacking.
Try again.
Cite attacks on American after 1800 until America started to support Israel.

 

How we handled our 1821 Hostage Crisis

~by Forest McDonald

(Professor of history at the University of Alabama and author of “Alexander Hamilton: A Biography).”

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were repeatedly plagued with just that problem. It was Jefferson and his secretary of state and successor Madison who came up with a solution.

At the time there were, on the Barbary Coast of northern Africa, four Islamic kingdoms; Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli which lived mainly by stealing on the high seas. Rather than prevent such outrages, the maritime nations of Europe avoided depredations by paying formal bribes or “tribute,” even as westerners today pay tribute for Arab oil.

The United States, under Washington, followed the European example. Though Washington administration built a small navy in response to Arab threats, it opted under popular pressure, to moth ball the fleet and pay tribute instead. Adam did the same.

But Jefferson and Madison refused to follow such a course. Jefferson sent the infant U.S. Navy to the Mediterranean to engage in defensive operations, protecting American merchant ships.

The hostage crisis came in 1803. Late the 44-gun frigate, the USS Philadelphia, ran aground on a sandbar off Tripoli, and its crew was taken hostage. That was a routine instrument of statecraft in the Islamic world; when European governments proved loath to pay tribute, Barbary Coast rulers whipped them into line by seizing their nationals and holding them in dungeons until the governments capitulated and, incidentally, ransoms were paid.

Jefferson would have no part of it. He threw the entire Navy, such as it was , against Tripoli not to free the hostages, but to teach the Tripolitans never to trifle with the U.S. again. After some spectacular fighting, the pasha of Tripoli was forced to agree to cease plundering the American Ships and to waive American tribute in the future. The captive were release unharmed.

But the American commander, Edward Preble, was not content to let the matter rest there. Interpreting the President’s orders liberally (and properly), he gave the Algerians and Moroccans a taste of the same medicine. The Jefferson administration was then able to establish a general settlement on favorable terms.

Unfortunately, during the War of 1812, the Algerians took advantage of America’s troubles and resumed their raiding. Nearly 200 American merchant seamen were captured, imprisoned. and forced into slavery. As soon as it became possible, the Navy was sent out to tend to the matter.

In 1815 Madison dispatched Capt. Stephen Decatur to the Mediterranean with three frigates, two sloop. of war, and five light Baltimore clipper schooners. Just past the Strait of Gibraltar, the squadron sighted the Algerian flagship and reduced her to garbage in 20 minutes.

Decatur sailed on to Algeria and paid the pasha a personal call. Not only must the piracy stop, tribute be forever ended and the enslaved crews released, Decatur said, the pasha must pay the United States an indemnity for having captured the crewmen in the first place.

The pasha demurred, whereupon Decatur calmly informed him that the Americans would start sinking Algerian ships, one by one, until either the money was paid or there was not so much as an Algerian rowboat left afloat. The pasha capitulated Then Decatur did the same thing with the rulers of Tunis and Tripoli, with the same results.

The Barbary rulers were a slippery lot and no doubt planned to go back to their old ways as soon as Decatur was out of sight. However, they were in for a rude surprise. Decatur had scarcely sailed out before an American squadron under William Bainbridge sailed in to pay a polite “social call.” The rulers got the message.

To make sure that they did not forget, the Navy leased a permanent base at Port Mahon on the island of Majorca and cruised the Mediterranean on “friendly” visits for years thereafter. The Barbary Arab. did not forget.

The moral of the story is too obvious to mention.

Would our present President have the wit and the guts to repeat it...?

 

Will Israeli arabs leave to the west bank if Palestinians some how and illegaly establish a state ? Probably not.
So why should 350000 jews leave their homes ?
Palestinian Bedouin occupied the west bank.

 

Tell me , who was'nt + still is 'nt diabolically slippery , ? -

the Jews ?: roflol:

Pot - Kettle ? LOL