Why because you say so. What a crock. You come on a thread with some b.s. pretext its going to talk about peace then you prattle on and on with your usual assortment of anti Israelis on why you will never recognize a Jewish state. You blatantly show how closed minded you are and what such threads attract, people like you who come on this forum to spittle and spittle about why they will never get over Jews having a state just like Muslims. Get over it. The whole lot of you.
There's absolutely nothing anti-Israeli in the following proposition: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.
Is that the absurd game you want to play with me? What you can trot out some meaningless words without their full context? You know damn well that removing words from their full context, isolating them from the further context they are attached to and pretending they are not being attached to further words expressing a different agenda than the one you present is not a game I play. For years Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians have hidden behind words to hide their true agenda of wiping out Israel and turning it back into a Muslim state. It no longer matters. The double speak has ended. Once Arafat got caught in South Africa off air bragging he had been bargaining in bad faith and at no time did the PLO have any intention of ever accepting anything other than the extinction of the state of Israel, the façade ended. Its over. You can play all the word games you want no one, absolutely no one takes the words of a Muslim politician, an Arab politician, a Palestinian politician seriously. No one and you have only yourself to blame for that by playing these word games. As of today, here, now there is not one Arab, one Palestinian, one Muslim in any position of political power, who will, can or want to stand up and say, enough- put down the terrorist weapons so two states can co-exist. There is not one who has the ability to put an end to the civil wars, the Muslim extremism, the hatred to unify their people, not one. The Arab collective laid down a collective curse against Jews for starting a state, and now the curse has blown back whence it came. (*)(*)(*)(*) into that sandstorm. I really don't care.
Palestinians are under no legal or moral obligation to be nice to israelis while they are still under Occupation.
Perhaps Fatah and Hamas need to reconcile before there is a reconciliation attempt with Israel. In general throughout history oppressed people have had an enemy created for them by their leaders. that enemy can be real or imagined. I have not been to Palestine so I do not know if the poverty I am read to believe exist is real. It is my understanding that many Palestinians work in Israel. If this is true it implies that Israel offers more opportunity that Palestine for workers. Arafat was a billionaire while his people strapped on suicide vests. why were his followers not outraged? it is my understanding that Palestinian children are educated to hate Jewish people. Similarly black leaders in America complain about racism. When people are being oppressed their leaders always blame it on a third party. Iran is another example. well fed people with economic opportunity are hard to oppress. keep them poor and uninformed and you can control them for your own aims. Israel is comparatively rich and democratic, Other states in the region are all poor. Of course their leaders hate Israel.
A supposedly smart man writing the above drivel... There was no Palestine and Palestine independent state to warrant the nomenclature <occupied>... Yes sir, Israel is occupying its own realm. The other are are modern arrivals from Muslim Europe i.e. Bosnians, Bukharis, Circassians, Uzbeks Turks, and African t.e. Egyptians, Moghrabim, Sudanese, Yemenites and other denominations
Israel Mr. Shiva _TD does not owe the Arabs of Israel anything at all....' Further.... why should this be the role of Israel to create yet another Palestinian State if one already exist and is called today Jordan? ISRAEL OWES NOTHING TO NO ONE It was not until February 22, 1948, that Transjordan broke its last links with Britain to become nominally independent. Its army, however, remained under British command and invaded western Palestine, - conquering large tracts, including part of Jerusalem. All Jews were either killed or expelled. In 1967 King Hussein thought he would be able to complete the conquest of all of Palestine (since 77% of it was already under his command). He attacked Israel..., was roundly beaten and forced back across the Jordan. The Israelis stopped at the Jordan River..., although they could easily have rolled on to Amman. They stopped because they hoped that the original 1922 partition would be the accepted consensus. But it was not... Still the Arabs want everything. Is there any moral duty to give them anything at all, let alone everything? The present division of Palestine (77% Trans-Jordan and 23% Cis-Jordan) is certainly not unfair to the Arabs. Although many Palestinian Arabs as well as Palestinian Jews have been innocent victims of war, it is nonetheless a fact that Arab hate against the Jews is the cause of all this fighting, and Israel cannot be expected to take moral responsibility for this or its consequences. The purely moral issues are quite clear. If the Palestinian Arabs have been wronged, it was by their own leadership and the other Arab states. As long as they do not dissociate themselves from these warlike policies, they must share the blame for the troubles they have brought upon themselves. It must be emphasized that we have dealt only with the purely moral question here... The charting of a wise course for the Israeli ship of state is at this instant not steered by the most ideal Captain, but this is what Israel has elected to put at its commanding post... It is also very important to recognize that there is a false doctrine being preached on this boards by all kinds of self-appointed friends and half-disguised enemies, who make out as if there is a moral case against Israel..., and as a native born Jerusalemite, I resent it ! Whatever these Gentle-persons are preaching is a lie..., and it needs to be declared as such as bluntly and as forcefully as possible. Israel owes the Palestinian Arabs nothing, and we ALL need to know that. No doubt it is wise and desirable to seek accommodation with the PA. But that is a matter for politics… Let no one confuse the nature of the questions involved. Once we enter the area of politics… matters become very complicated indeed. Should Israel be overly generous and thus buy Palestinian Arab friendship? This would not be an acceptable deal since the Arabs consider any friendly gesture towards them as a sign of weakness. Others might argue that any concessions given without getting a proper exchange will tend to encourage further blackmail and belligerency. This is the REAL dilemma that Israel is presently encountering and nothing else!
In previous posts on this forum 'Israel' is blamed for the departure of 1/2 a million ARABS... UNRWA record approximately 450,000.... You can call it whatever your heart desires, but in reality, it is an exchange of Population that has been tried several times before with tremendous successes. In Asia: Millions of Muslims fled from India to Pakistan following the partition of that sub-continent after World War I, and a similar number of Indians left Pakistan for India - an estimated eight million in each direction. This was a classic instance of large-scale population exchange. In Europe: Millions of Germans moved in various directions following the post-war changes in the map of Europe. According to official West German statistics, by September 1950 three million Germans had been expelled from the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia, and of these 2,069,000 were absorbed in West Germany or Austria and 916,000 in East Germany. Between 1949 and the erection of the Berlin Wall in August 1961 an additional 2,739,000 refugees from East Germany were registered in West German absorption centers. In all, over 3.5 million people fled East Germany, and another 6.75 million Germans left their homes in areas annexed by Poland, moved west, and were absorbed there. In Africa: According to official estimates, the number of French and pro-French Arabs who left North Africa for France and other locations following Algerian independence reached over one million. Refugee migration in considerable numbers also took place in China - Hong-Kong, Korea, Vietnam - Laos - Cambodia, Nigeria (lbo), Greece - Turkey, and many other countries. In all of these instances - as in the situation of the Jews from Arab countries (nearly One Million) - solutions were found by absorption of the refugees into their new countries. They virtually ceased, after a time, to be considered refugees. Only the rulers of the Arab countries acted otherwise in relation to their fellow Arabs, despite the fact that most of them were victims of the clear, open, and declared invasion of the Arab armies in May 1948. After 1967, Israel was given the opportunity to help rehabilitate the Arab refugees living in those territories, which came under Israeli rule following the Six-Day War. With the initiative, encouragement, and partial financing of the Israeli government, thousands of families in the Gaza Strip and a smaller number in Judea and Samaria were moved from squalid refugee camps to new housing where they received all vital services. Due partially to this development, and partially to Arab propaganda's shift of emphasis in recent years to the national aspect of the Palestinian problem, the Arab refugee problem has lost some of its point. "The suffering of the quasi poor refugees" is spoken of less and less today… and the necessity, of creating a "Palestinian State" in order to resolve what is presented as the "lack of a homeland" of the Palestinian Arab people is mentioned with increasing frequency… In reality 77% of the "Mandate for Palestine" is already with Jordan, and when 72% of its population is clearly made out of Arabs of Palestinian stock and the remaining 28% are a mix of Circassian from Muslim Europe and Bedouins meandering gypsies who before 1946 were roaming the M.E. according to seasons to be able to feed their livestock. It is the unrelenting hate generated at the crib, and the constant brainwash with deluding nationalistic programming that is the horror with which the young Arabs are fed day in and day out. One Million Jews were forcibly displaced penniless from their original home out of many Arab countries and have found refuge in Israel and other countries. I do not see why this could not be duplicated by moving the encroaching Arabs in Israel to the 21 Arab Countries or any benevolent emigration centers i.e. Canada, Australia, the US, Brazil and Argentina. From DFME (Democracy for the Middle East):- “Expulsion is the method which, so far as we have been able to see, will be the most satisfactory and lasting. There will be no mixture of population to cause endless trouble… a clean sweep will be made.” Winston Churchill, British Prime Minister, 1944 Speech to House of Commons, Regarding forcible transfer of between 3.5 and 9 million to recreate Poland after WWII. It is evident that two peoples will not be able to live together in one country in harmony. They have different religions, different languages, different cultures, different aspirations, different goals and aims, they have to separate... Israel has only one country and the Arabs have 21!
Thanks for another well written Post about which I’d like to raise a couple of points as I both enjoy, appreciate & respect the many thoughtful Polls & Threads you have started. However, I must disagree with your suggestion that since that assumption is contradicted by many very knowledgable individuals including M. Begin, himself. [6], [7], [8]. Since Israel’s violent conception via Foreign Aid & Foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs, it has been an ever expanding Ethnic Cleansing entity. To the detriment of all peace seeking nations & individuals that include some Israelis, Israel has very rarely shown more than the facade of an interest in sincere peacemaking or needed to. Due to the luxury of early & nearly complete, gifted German infrastructure & military aid [1], unconditional U.S. enablement & America’s endless $ Trillions & enormous Military Aid, Israeli governments have never had neither motive nor an incentive to adhere to International Law including UN Res. 242. Why make peace when you can continue to exterminate, expel, & engage in endless Land Grabs & still extract unlimited $ Trillions [2], nuclear weapons, cargo ships, submarines & an enormous, never-ending amount of the most sophisticated weaponry that can be extracted from already needy Americans by the innumerable & insatiable Zionist lobbies that have even succeeded in driving Americans to fighting their Wars: “Quietly lobbying Congress to approve the use of force in Iraq was one of AIPAC’s successes over the past year” AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun; Jan. ’03 Re: Other Zionist extracted military aid: “ Many details remain untold, but a 2006 U.S. Congressional Research Service report concluded that German-supplied arms “played a considerable role” in building up Israeli military might in the wars of 1967, 1973 and 1982.” [1] _ _ _ _ _ A fair, just & durable peace seems as elusive now as ever with both the bombastic, anti-Peace rhetoric coming the Right Wing Netanyahu Regime [3] & its mirror image in an increasingly Rightward moving Israeli society much of which supports Ethnic Cleansing [4] & more illegal Expansion. It seemed like the bulk of your well written Post focused on the governments of historic Palestine’s tormented Native Population when Khaled Meshaal has essentially agreed to living under the conditions outlined by UN Res. 242: KHALED MESHAAL: [translated] “I am ready to coexist with the Jews, with the Christians, and with the Arabs and non-Arabs, and with those who agree with my ideas and also disagree with them; however, I do not coexist with the occupiers, with the settlers and those who put a siege on us.” Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents" | Democracy Now! At any rate, as long as this & future Israeli governments can benefit to such an unprecedented degree while concurrently Ethnic Cleansing, sterilizing, experimenting on [5] & endlessly stealing land from the Palestinian people, what motive does Israel have to make peace.......ever? Finally, you suggested that: “While we can argue the veracity of that claim {Israel acting in self-defense} let's simply accept it at face value. “ My understanding of the “’67 War” is that it was a long planned piece of a larger agenda named “Operation Cyanide” that required a War for other events to unfold and is a separate story unto itself. Since the consequences of the “ ’67 War” form the bulk of todays contentions & claims, I feel that is important to establish the reality of Israel’s Expansionist agenda in word & deed as well as Past & Present in order to forecast the likelihood of there ever being the realistic, just & durable Peace sought by many outnumbered Israelis & interested parties worldwide. An individual no less than M. Begin contradicts the suggestion that the “ ’67 War” and other Israeli initiated wars were in “self defense”[6]. Other early Zionists established the Expansionist nature of their new Zionist Colony , [7], [8] for the world to see & the Western Media to distort to appear as if the true aggressor were the “poor, little defender. Ultra sophisticated Foreign weaponry from U.S. & German military largesse made the neighborhood Wars & Land Grabs easier as sterilizing, mutilating and carcinogenic IDF’s experimental, Chemical, N.D.U., D.U., Genotoxic ordinance & D.I.M.E. bombs[9] have made Israel’s Ethnic Cleansing agenda the most ruthless, foreign funded genocide on the planet. You’re far from alone in having: Unfortunately, as one who has spent 10 - 11 months in the Region and researched, watched & studied Regional dynamics & history for almost 50 years, I am not optimistic as long as ruthless & unpopular [10] Racist Regime attempts to lead a society of which so many are eager & shameless Supporters & defenders of foreign funded, Zionist Ethnic Cleansing. Thanks, again, for your contribution. [1] “Inside the Germany/Israel Relationship” http://www.momentmag.com/inside-germanyisrael-relationship/ EXCERPT.”....funds from the Federal Republic of Germany laid the groundwork for Israel’s infrastructure—including roads, railways and shipping—while simultaneously rebuilding West German industry. In 1952,... West Germany agreed to pay three billion Deutschmarks (DM)(*) to Israel directly—a hefty proportion in the form of German goods—and an additional 4.5 million DM to Jewish organizations .... The amount paid out .... worldwide is vastly higher, with some estimates as high as $100 billion.(*) In addition to money, Israel also needed weapons. As early as 1954, German reparation funds were secretly being used to buy patrol boats, tanks and arms. Germany itself supplied Israel with weapons through a variety of back channels. Many details remain untold, but a 2006 U.S. Congressional Research Service report concluded that German-supplied arms “played a considerable role” in building up Israeli military might in the wars of 1967, 1973 and 1982. CONTINUED [2] “The Real Cost Of US Support For Israel – $3(*)Trillion” https://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/the-real-cost-of-us-support-for-israel-3-trillion/ [2] “The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion” http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306020.html [3] “Israel's PM Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch” http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/ [3] “Netanyahu Says No to Statehood for Palestinians”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/world/middleeast/benjamin-netanyahu-campaign-settlement.html?_r=0 [4] Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html [5] "Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html [6] “Begin’s Admission in 1982 That Israel Started Three of Its Wars”http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0794/9407073.htm EXCERPT“It was 12 years ago when Prime Minister Menachem Begin admitted in public that Israel had fought three wars in which it had a "choice," meaning Israel started the wars. Begin's admission came in a speech delivered on Aug. 8, 1982, before the Israeli National Defense College. His purpose was to defuse mounting criticism of Israel's invasion of Lebanon, which had begun two months earlier on June 5 and was clearly one of Israel's wars of "choice." The others were in 1956 and 1967.” CONTINUED “In June 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentration in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” Menachem Begin (1913 - 1992), former Israeli Prime Minister, speaking about the "six day war" [7] "Our strategy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them". [Israeli General Moshe Dayan; diaries] http://www.trionfopublishing.com/news_page_49.htm www.moneyam.com/InvestorsRoom/posts.php?tid=13642&from=4917 [8] “The State of Israel must must invent dangers and to do this, it must adopt methods of provocation and revenge.......and, above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire more space.” “Moshe Sharett; Diaries” [9] “CONSEQUENCES OF ISRAELI WEAPONS TESTING ON GAZA” http://snippits-and-slappits.blogspot.com/2011/03/consequences-of-israeli-weapons-testing.html [9] “The DIME Bomb: Yet another genotoxic weapon, Part III” https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=5748 EXCERPT “ Since early July, Israeli forces have been using a new weapon in the Gaza Strip that inflicts strange and deadly wounds.... .......DU & NDU bombs are converted to micron-sized particles that sicken and kill and murder the next generation in the womb.”CONTINUED [10] “BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations” http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/bbc-poll-israel-among-world-s-least-popular-nations-1.525890 EXCERPT“The annual BBC World Service poll finds Germany most popular; only countries less popular than Israel are North Korea, Pakistan and Iran.”CONTINUED
I'm very much aware of the Zionist agenda but the power of Zionism even within Israel has decreased over the years. There's also much less tolerance internationally for the Zionist agenda that was always about securing all of Palestine for the (some of) the Jewish people. Israel, in the future, will have a choice of voluntarily acknowledging the sovereignty of the Palestinian people within their internationally recognized borders or they will be eventually forced from that territory by UN Security Council Resolutions that would begin with economic sanctions, and if necessity dictates, with the use of military force.
Well I belive that if we have 20 years more of Likud and/or more extreme right in power and no progress - sanctions are a very real option, war? not possible. But I saw a nice initiative on last weekend news I still think about, an Israeli - Palestine federation, seems to have supporters from both Settelers and Palestinians thou its still not publicly well known, the idea is keeping the national countries for national pride but have a mutual federal gov of 50-50 to govern land and settelments, Jerusalem will be shared, no Jews will get evicted from Palestine and Arabs can live in Israel as well. The diffrence from a bi national state is on paper both keep their indipendance, the federation is to evolve it to a greater state of being. it's something worth developing IMO.
We're seeing movement in the UN Security Council to recognize Palestine as an independent sovereign nation (under adverse occupation) recently. France and Russia have already agreed to this, China would go along with it, the UK would probably be next and finally the US. Once all five permanent members agree (or don't veto) UN recognition then the following is likely to occur. The UNSC will authorize economic sanctions in an attempt to coerce Israel to withdraw from Palestine. If that don't work, and Israel refuses to withdraw, then the UNSC is likely to authorize military action where UN troops will begin to deploy into Palestine probably through Jordan and/Egypt. They will not seek to engage Israeli forces but will expand into all of the Palestine territory causing the Israeli military to either withdraw or fight. Basically Israel will be forced to "fight or flee" from the advancing UN military forces. If the proposal is in any way based upon democracy then the Jews are out-numbered politically and they won't accept that.
Will Smith will blow up the allien mother ship b4 that happens, y'know if the world was such strait forward and uncompremising we would all be living in a very diffrent reality. The Federal idea keeps 50-50 regardless of demographics and within national countries normal majurity, in Israel Jews are majurity 75-25.
arabs Gilos your acquiescence to such an anomalous decision make me think that our <independence> is slowly eroding. Think a little, if we have to live with the Arabs that BTW have already 21 x Arab countries surrounding the Patrimony of the Jews, if we have to live with Arabs that their sole purpose in Israel is to kill Jews, undermine the authority of Israel, and defy/disdain outcast Jews for we are considered unbeliever = kafirun... imagine two different Languages, two different writings, two different religions which theirs abhor, hate and detest ours, two different purpose and aims toward Jews.... I say we should be independent... today things seem to be Benin and yet many Jews succumbed to the stone throwing and knife yielding Arabs. Tomorrow they WILL definitely say this is our country and ALL THE JEWS OUT LEST WE SLAUGHTER THEM! Think, think, think... jihadwatch.org, June 01, 2016 Qur’an-based (5:82; 5:59-60; 7:166; 2:89; 3:112; 9:30, etc.) Jew-hatred is coming to France with Muslim migrants and the rising Muslim population. This story tiptoes around the fact, but makes it obvious when it notes that the new anti-Antisemitism is connected to hatred for Israel.
Mr. Bendor, all the negative things you say about the Palestinians are actually true for Israelis. Don't you ever pay attention to how your country treats the Pals?
The Palestinian Arabs only have one country, Palestine, and the Israelis have been engaged a hostile occupation of their country for almost 50 years. Can you really blame anyone for fighting against the tyranny of a hostile foreign occupation of their country? The Israelis need to live in peace with the Palestinian Arabs and that is achieved based upon the provisions of UNSC 242.
What I wish on my people is the right to defend themselves from looters, rapists, murderers and assassins yielding knifes and other weapons to kill Jews. To the Arabs and all who advocate for them I say bring it in once so we can settle the matter and bring Peace to the Land. And another thing, notwithstanding the political inclination of some Liberal/progressive Jewish leaders... no one is allowed to give away an inch of the Jewish Patrimony... there are another 10 million Jews waiting with a wish of return and we need the space. To the Arabs I say... the world has created 21 Arab States this past century for your Self Determination, please pick and move in any of them and try hard to be happier there.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, your so called Palestinian Arabs are the best treated in the world , Israel has not chased them en block from Israel like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia did... If you need to see the villas they have built without authorization come and visit and ponder how the Israeli have mistreated them. The Arabs living in Israel are living in a Jewish Paradise the like of which is non existent in the Arab world.
But Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what Mr. Bendor says is not all true. There are numerous reports out of Palestine that portray a totally different picture of life for the Palestinians under Israeli occupation. Here is just one website where most Israeli atrocities are gathered together on one page. Take a look... Read on here: http://www.peterloud.co.uk/palestine/ This guy has gathered his information not from Palestinian sources, but from regular media stories and publicly available government data. Shocking, isn't it, Mr. Bendor? I wish I could travel to Palestine and see for myself, but that is not possible at the moment. So, I rely on sources from the media and Internet. This is not intended to hurt your feelings, but rather to show the other side of the coin.
In regard to the Arab world - it is not united, so on concept lvl I have no problem to be hated like Arabs hate other Arabs from parts of the world, I can deal with that and IMO it will be considerable less than to be # 1 enemy of all Arabs today, We will be indipendant and more, time to evolve my friend, we got out of the Getto 70 years ago and we still act as if the whole world hunts us down, we are stronger than that and the Torah was meant to be shared and envied, not as a banner of conquest. If spliting the land is no possible perhaps a federation is a better idea, for the record I have 3 Jewish neighbors today Im willing to switch with Muslim ones, today! Its funny that in old times the land was also split to two kingdoms, maybe there is someting in the soil
He said Arabs live IN Israel, not Gaza, Gaza is not Israel. That's a picture from the "resisting" Gaza is it not? during the last "resistance" fight ? not very resistant after all, sorry I couldnt resist ....
Yes in spirit but not throu your logic and Israel is not to take sole responsibility, the whole "hostile occupation" wouldnt have happened if 181 was respected OR 1948 cease fire OR 1968 cease fire. So yes to peace, no for that approach, respect and honesty should be part of a peace treaty or it wont be a real peace.
If UNGA Resolution 181 was adopted (as opposed to being rejected) then Israel would be considerably smaller than it is today and Jerusalem would be an "international city" and not divided between the Palestinians and the Israelis. If the 1949 Armistice between Israel and Jordan had been complied with then the 400,000-700,000 Arab refugees from the Israeli territory would have been allowed to return to their homes and villages inside of the Israeli territory and they would have been Israeli citizens. Of course then the Arabs would have had majority control of the government and Israel would not exist as a "Jewish" nation today. In 1967 Israel's rationalization for going to war was against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria and not against the Palestinians. So why did Israel occupy the Palestinian territory to begin with when it wasn't a part of Egypt, Jordan or Syria and Israel did not go to war against the Palestinians? Of course the proposition for peace I've provided in the OP is fair for both the Palestinians and the Israelis because it simply limits each to their respective internationally recognized borders and establishes an end to all claims and acts of belligerency between the two nations where mutual respect by each nation for the other's right to live in peace is established. Additionally it provides the safe-guard of an international military force to occupy a buffer zone to ensure that neither side can attack/invade the other.
