Israel's options in Palestine

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by StillBlue, Mar 23, 2024.

  1. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    As I see it Israel has few options.
    They continue as is. The problem with that is it can only end in genocide as every time they kill one Hamas fighter two new Palestinians join the fighting in their place. At the beginning they said there were 5000 Hamas fighters and after at least 30K dead Hamas keeps fighting. Either a lot of civilians are dying at Israeli hands or genocide is the ultimate goal. Ironic that considering the history of jews.
    Not going to make a lot of friends that way.
    The second option is to return to israel, stop Israelis from taking Palestinian land (little has been said about the incursion two months before the Hamas attack where Israelis took land from a Palestinian farmer and Israeli soldiers did nothing despite being present). Let a peacekeeping force tale over the border and for God's sake make a fixed border.
    I would also suggest making Jerusalem an independent state for no one to fight over. We see Christians, Jews and Muslims living there in peace, let it be neither Israel nor Palestine but more like the Vatican.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2024
  2. Oldyoungin

    Oldyoungin Well-Known Member

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    They need to continue until no Hamas exist
     
  3. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Really silly assumption there. The idea that all Palestinians are equally suicidally insane is not yet proven and the minute it is then if the world is to have peace in the middle east then that becomes an argument for not against the unthinkable. And the only question who the victim of genocide will be either the Jews or the Pals.
     
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  4. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Quite unlikely. But even if they could accomplish that, it would just take a few years for the next generation to organize out of utter hatred for Israel because they killed their parents, sons, daughters, friends... And the next terrorist group will adopt some new name and... we're back to square one.

    Israel has ONE option: withdraw, start taking steps towards a two-state solution, and provide reparations to the civilian population of Palestine.

    Anything else means Israel would be condemning thousands of their OWN people to die. If you support Israel (and I do), you don't want this to happen. But it's what nuts like Netanyahu are going to accomplish.

    This isn't even a difficult call. They've been doing the same over and over for decades... Haven't they learned?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2024
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  5. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    So then do we genocide Jews or Palestinians? Because in the end that is the only ultimate resolution of your logic is correct.
     
  6. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see it a little different:

    EVERYONE must to understand that a claim that Black lives matter, Palestinian lives matter, but Jewish lives depending on the context is totally wrong assumption.

    EVERYONE must to understand than murdering, raping and kidnapping innocent civilians is the same crime, without regard if victims are Jews, Palestinians or Andorran.

    EVERYONE must to understand that an attacked country has a right to respond and punish attackers.

    EVERYONE must to understand that if aggressors are hiding between civilian populations, civilians will suffer.

    Palestinians refugees must to understands that they are not special humans with special rights, they have the same rights as German refugees, Pakistani refugees, Indian refugees or Rohingya refugees.

    Attacked country must try to prevent civilian causalities, for example to notify which area it will bomb and no one should try to prevent civilian population from leaving bombed areas.

    Arab countries must understand that Israel is there for stay and trying to destroy Israel will not make Israel weaker.

    There should be a Palestinian state, but only if:
    1. It will be a democratic state, with equal right to all citizens, equal right to gays, apostates, woman, atheists and more
    2. It will be demilitarized country
    3. Borders of the Palestinian states should be the result of negotiations


    Is it possible? Difficult to say. Palestinians population is deeply religious, believing that Allah wants them to fight infidels and growing number of Israelis believes that Jewish God gave this territory to Jews and they must to keep it. But the lasts precedence, like peace between Germany and France, England, Poland it Israel shows that peace is possible.
     
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  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The collateral damage is creating more Hamas.

    ...you see the problem, right?
     
  8. Pred

    Pred Well-Known Member

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    That’s what happens with a culturally
    Bankrupt and psychotic extreme religion, bent on killing those who disagree with them is allowed to exist in the first place.

    They can’t operate a state. You need to prove leadership is capable of rational thought and a peaceful friendship with their neighbors. Palestinians have never once wanted peace with Israel.
     
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  9. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is not always true - the collateral damage of Nazi Germany did not create more Nazis. And the same with Japan.
     
  10. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    I think that Israel will ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip by pushing the inhabitents into Egypt, and then redevelop the land and move settlers there. The West bank will follow suite. This has been the intent all along. The border with Lebanon will also be secured. With US support Israel will become very strong politically and financially.
     
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  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Jesus Christ! Get a grip!
     
  12. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Dude that is the only place you have to go if you assume that all Palestinian are such suicidal nut Jobs that they will constantly attack Israel at every opportunity no matter what Israel does.
     
  13. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Banned

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    There isn’t a single part of this statement that isn’t made up. Hamas numbers were at 30-40 thousand, what kind of pathetic military rules 2.3 million with an iron fist with only 5,000?

    The rest is just made up analysis and projection based on this made up fact with nothing to support it and further assumptions compounding your erroneous post that anyone who turns terrorist somehow gets automatically transformed into a well trained fighter equipped with unlimited weapons and ammunition.

    Get your facts straight.





    So all this happens and the newly reconstituted Hamas starts firing rockets again. Now what?
     
  14. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There will always be a Hamas or other resistance organization as long as :
    1. The Netanyahu regime continues to exterminate or expel Gaza's native residents and occupies Gaza

    2. The same Netanyahu regime remains in violation of international law and refuses to negotiate in good faith.

    Israel holds all the cards.

    I am not optimistic as long as violent extremists rule both sides.

    Thanks,
     
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  15. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There will always be a Hamas or other resistance organization as long as:

    1. Palestinians will not understand that Israel is there to stay

    2. Palestinians refugees don’t have more rights than German, Jewish or Syrian refugees

    3. Murdering, raping and kidnapping civilian Israelis is the same crime as murdering, raping and kidnapping civilian Arabs, Germans or Monacans

    4. Arab and Jewish Gods don’t give a damn what their followers wants

    The cards are in the hands of Israelis and Palestinians, the solution must be some kind of compromise.

    Seeing what’s going on – I am not optimistic.
     
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  16. Eclectic

    Eclectic Newly Registered

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    Israel is too small geographically and in population to defend itself in the long run. The only solution is to have an international agreement on two states with established borders and an international peace keeping force drawn from UN security council members to ensure tranquility.

    In effect, from the river to the sea becomes a internationally run museum dedicated to obsolete religions.
     
  17. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    OR, "Destroy your enemy by making them your friend".
     
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  18. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I couldn't care less what they do. My main concern is ensuring that we have peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.

    I do think that their methods are ultimately counter-productive (both the Oct 7 attack and Israel's subsequent response), a lesson we learned all too well in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and elsewhere, but seem to have forgot: this is not how you defeat an insurgency. Vietnam and Iraq in particular, where the more we bombed and raided the more the populace seemed to rally behind the insurgency. When you drag a man out of his home naked in the night without cause, in front of his wife, you've just created a blood debt. That man, even if he hated the insurgency, now picks up a gun. When you shoot a father his sons will pick up guns. When you bomb a family and kill 19 family members, the survivor is picking up a gun.

    But that's a problem for Israel and Palestine to figure out. We should establish neutrality on the issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2024
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True, but those were conventional militaries. The asymetric 'terrorist' and 'insurgent' are in large part a result of our conventional military dominance since those two powers were defeated.
     
  20. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Prolly true. But why would they? Would you accept second-class citizenship in your homeland after it was conquered by a materially superior and largely foreign force, or would you resist?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2024
  21. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    What we have here is a perpetual war. It will never end in a million years. The Jews have tried to live in peace, but they are so hated they will never have peace. So, they just keep avenging those who attack them. Presently we are seeing the retaliation for the 5,000 rockets Hamas suddenly and deliberately fired into peaceful Israeli cities killing hundreds of Israelis. If Hamas wanted peace, or they wanted Israel to stop killing Palestine citizens and destroying buildings, they would release the kidnapped citizens they are holding and set down to talks. You can't be at peace with people who want you dead.
     
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  22. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the government of Mexico staged a cross-border massacre, rape, and kidnapping operation in one of our border states, along with firing thousands of rockets into our cities along the border, targeting primarily civilians, how would the U.S. respond to that?

    Answer: We would utterly destroy the government of Mexico, and we would kill or capture everybody responsible.
     
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  23. Pred

    Pred Well-Known Member

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    When you keep shooting rockets into that country on the border simply because they’re Jews and need to be exterminated, what do expect the neighbor to do? Sit there and take it. There would be NO War If the Palestinians just lived like a 1st world nation. But they NEVER have. They’ve always behaved like animals.
     
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  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Does it surprise you that I agree with everything you just wrote?

    Unlike many people here and at other Internet forums who discuss the Israel - Palestine conflict, I don't feel that only one side is responsible for all the carnage.

    Even though I spent months in and around the unfortunate residents of Palestinian refugee camps in Southern Lebanon, a lot has changed but many things have remained the same.

    Because I was there before, during and after the '73 War, I had plenty of time to listen to survivor accounts and look through tattered photographs of former homes, farms, olive groves and executed Palestinian family members. The Palestinians with whom I spoke didn't blame the Israelis / Zionist terrorist gangs for all their misery.
    They, like all people, were desperate for honest, practical and effective leadership to improve their lives and provide the basic necessities.

    1. Even about 50 years ago, the Palestinians with whom I spoke knew and accepted that Israel was there to stay and many of them regretted losing contact with former Jewish neighbors and shopkeepers.

    2. I also fully agree that Palestinian refugees certainly don't deserve more or fewer rights than any other refugees but I do feel that any durable peace must include reparations much like what Holocaust survivors receive and have received.
    Just as they do not deserve more than German, Jewish or Syrian refugees, they don't deserve any less.

    3. Of course murder is murder and raping and kidnapping anyone is a reprehensible crime but when selectively enforced and punished, only resentment and discord can result.

    4. Even though I agree with you on this point, as well, I have seen more than a little evidence that: "The good Lord watches over drunks, fools and children."

    Finally, it it is true that both sides must negotiate a compromise that satisfies the majority of both the Israelis and Palestinians but, at the moment, I have never been quite so pessimistic about the prospects for peace in the region.

    Even though it's been 50 years since I was in the Levant, I felt a closeness to that ancient region, its people and sincerely regret not being to continue on to Israel and Egypt.

    Even though neither of us is optimistic, I hope that you and yours remain safe and also hope that future generations find a way out of the cyclical violence that has plagued so many generations for so long.

    Thanks,
     
  25. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe that we both respect the same values, but our different life experiences lead us to trust different versions of events.

    I understand that it was not the Palestinians' fault that Jews decided to leave Europe and settle in Palestine. The blame lies with the Europeans. Jews were seeking a safe haven to escape pogroms, persecution and anti-Semitism. At that time, Palestine was under Ottoman rule, and many Jews felt a spiritual connection to the land. What Jews did to Palestinians is similar to what Americans did to Native Americans and Mexicans, what Poland did to Germany, and what Russia did to Poland, Finland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Chechnya, and other countries. This is precisely why we have the world borders we have today. Unfair? Yes, but this is how humans have historically behaved.

    I have no doubt that Palestinians have shared terrible stories about Jews with you. Similarly, I doubt they would admit to participating in Jewish pogroms in Palestine. Just as Jews have committed atrocities during wars, Palestinians have also been guilty of such acts.

    So, what is the difference between Israelis and Palestinians? The culture. Israel is a democratic country with Western values where the government is constantly criticized, and the murder of any innocent person is considered a crime. There are numerous NGOs dedicated to helping Palestinians, some even going to the West Bank to protect Palestinians from settler attacks. I have yet to hear about any Palestinian NGO that condemns the killing of civilian Jews. As you may know, the Palestinian Authority pays salaries to jailed Palestinians who have murdered Jews, including women and children.

    Yes, Israel is tough in Gaza, but you should know that to win a fight in a city where the enemy stores weapons, ammunition, and entries to underground tunnels inside civilian buildings, the easiest way to protect soldiers is to bomb the buildings. Israel usually warns which areas it will bomb.

    I am not optimistic. During the October 7 attack, Hamas even killed people who were organizing aid for Gazans to visit Israeli hospitals. On Israeli TV, I saw an interview with an Israeli woman artist who had organized an exhibition with a Palestinian artist from Gaza. The theme was, if I remember correctly, 'Gaza and Israel.' During the October 7 attack, the Palestinian artist called her and asked if there were any Israeli soldiers in her kibbutz and where they were located. Only later did she realize why he was asking. At the end of the interview, she said she would never work with any Palestinian again.

    The majority of Palestinians approved of the October 7 attack, so in my opinion, the chances for compromise are not great.
     

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