Marx Had a Point

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by yardmeat, Jun 28, 2023.

  1. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes, let me just confess now that this title was pretty click-baity. Now, both academically and here on the forums I have not made it a secret that I'm against Marxism for a variety of reasons. The labor theory of value is nonsense, his view of Hegelian "progress" borders on a religion, his tyranny of the proletariat is self-contradictory, and central planning is far more prone to failures than the market itself is (though, of course, the market isn't perfect).

    But I recently resigned from my position at a telecom company and I'm looking for new work, and it has given me some cause for reflection regarding one thing I think Marx did get right: the theory of alienation.

    This has caused me more stress than anything else in my professional career: this idea of constantly needing to match my skills to the marketplace and to increasingly specialize and distance myself more and more from the product of my work.

    Imagine your job was to build cars. You love building cars! You love cars themselves! But the labor market always drives toward the efficiency of having workers be more and more specialized. Soon you find that your job is specifically about making tooth adjustments to gear A163-4 for model G11. It's hard to feel as much pride for your work then and hard to feel connected to the end product. While I'm somewhat exaggerating . . . not that much.

    Reflect for a moment on some of your hobbies and how much you love those. A friend of mine makes saddles, for example. The leatherwork, the stamping, everything! She is on cloud 9 every time she finishes a project. But then she goes to work and, as much as she loves her company's end product, her only role in it is to monitor project scheduling. That's it. And if she focuses too much on a more specific skill, like a particular piece of software, she runs the risk of being unemployable if that software is replaced or the market is flooded with others who can do the same.

    I've recently been working as a project manager, and I've loved being more of a generalist. I build business cases, build teams, plan for scope/cost/time, and guide the team through to the end. But then I got word that my role would be changing and would be more limited, focusing entirely on monitoring schedules, like my friend above, and I'd lose most of what I enjoyed before. Marx was right . . . I just couldn't find any enjoyment in my work or feel a connection to it anymore. Between that and my father's illness, I decided to take some time off.

    I don't know the solution. And, no, I don't think communism is the solution. But I thought it was worth sharing and getting the thoughts of others. Plus, so long as I'm out of work, I might as well quirk a few eyebrows.

    Side note: financially, I'm fine. My wife works a six-figure job just as I had been doing (more than enough to live well in this area) and I've supported her through a couple of similar situations. And I've put a ton in savings. And I have very inexpensive tastes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2023
  2. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good luck on the job search! I've had a similar experience. I'm in a small department that is niche and highly depended on but that makes me more and less expendable at the same time because if they move in a different direction as far as the software and products I work with then I'd be screwed.
    I've been there for 11 years and they used to have more of a jack of all trades business model where we had cross training in our department and now its moved to more specialization. There's certain tasks only I perform and certain tasks my coworkers perform and so on. I find it more efficient. Its also more boring.

    How does theory of alienation fit in here? I googled it and it says this:
    Karl Marx's theory of alienation describes the experience of human life as meaningless or the human self as worthless in modern capitalist society.

    What do you think would change with the company structure if it were under a non-capitalist system? I feel like they still would go for whatever is most efficient in terms of maximizing work and profit and turn around times.

    Also, project management is a very versatile field and relatable across lots of different types of companies so I think you will find something.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2023
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  3. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

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    If you have a hobby, could you turn it into a business? I did. I had been coin collector for over 30 years when I got laid off from my last job in a big company. I had had the boss from hell who made life miserable for everyone around her, but for the senior management thought she was THE ONE who would break THE GLASS CEILING. It took management four years, but they finally figured out that she had no managerial ability, and she got canned. But that's not the reason for this post.

    I was a collector, but I was a lot more. I am a student of coins, and used that along with my accounting degree and my MBA to build a business. I established connections with other dealers in the business and took it from there. I was able to sell $70,000 coins in what people were calling "a down market." I had dealers who would consign any coin to me regardless of value because they learned that I knew where I could sell it. Some of them hired me to represent them and given presentations before clubs like Lions and Odd Fellows.

    I worked want lists for collectors who were looking for specific items. I had a broad knowledge about U.S. coins, tokens and medals and could handle just about any area of the field. The job was not only profitable; it was fun.

    My "bosses" were my customers, and I didn't have to "hire" everyone of them. A few were a pain in the butt, and I didn't work with them that much. Some became good friends.

    I realize that not everyone can do this, but if you can, it's an option. You get to set a lot more parameters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2023
  4. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Much appreciated! And, yes, project management is very versatile. That's part of what drew me to it. I'm not really worried about finding new work and I've had several recruiters reach out to me as well as former colleagues. Plus it is nice to spend this time with my dad. I don't agree with Marx blaming this on capitalism. It's more of a market thing, and I LOVE the market. It's just one of of those negative side effects. Market pressures will continue pushing for specialization and specialization leads to this kind of boredom, dissatisfaction, and feeling of disconnection from the product of one's work. There are some people, especially (and I say this supportively) "neurodivergent" people who relish in specialization. But it isn't for a lot of us. The market creates a pressure for it, as it should for efficiency. It's just hard to understand what we should do to cope with it.

    And it creates risks for the workers that aren't shared by the business owners. We're seeing this with, say, coal miners and automotive workers as well. They specialize in something that starts to be outmoded, so what do we do about it? For example, as businesses rely more and more on globalizing their workforce and on AI and other technology, and they profit from something that creates an externality for the workers who have spent all of this time and energy specializing in roles that are not longer marketable, do we tax those businesses more and use that money for retraining for other fields? I don't know! That doesn't really apply to me, but I can see it applying to other people.

    I'm mostly a free-market guy, so I'd prefer a non-government solution, but there's obviously a need here that the market isn't yet filling. But, hey, maybe this just means I'm finding the start of my next business.
     
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  5. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad to hear you were able to turn that into a business. I'm an MBA as well and I've done a lot of volunteer work with the Lions.

    I think I am going to strike out on my own for a bit. I have a lot of former colleagues who were recently laid off whom I've worked with on product development before. We've talked about developing an app together. We've all got the chops having developed apps for FAANG companies before (Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google). It could turn into a business of its own, but even if it doesn't, we all get something to put in our portfolio.

    I'm also considering starting a small mushroom farm. There's a big market for culinary mushrooms here and I'm sure they'd go wild for locally-grown lions mane, shitake, morels, etc. We'll just have to see. I'm kind of a bloodhound when it comes to business opportunities, so I don't think it will take me long. The time off has just given me pause to reflect. And I do see how working for myself would solve most of the problems I've mentioned here.
     
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  6. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Blame it on Ransom Olds.
     
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  7. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I hope the new chapter in your life is all you hoped. You can't get to second base without taking your foot off of first! In the end, we come into this world and leave with the exact same account balance. Enjoy the time off and make it count!
     
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  8. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    There are times when we can, through action, control our destiny. There are also times, though, when we must play the hand we're dealt without re-shuffling the deck. It is those times when the story of the three men laying bricks in a wall can produce peace of mind.

    Regards, stay safe 'n well.
     
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  9. Quantum Nerd

    Quantum Nerd Well-Known Member

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    I can see the point that increasing specialization will narrow down work so much to repetitive tasks that it becomes too frustrating. As an academic, I have been fortunate to have avoided this kind of trap. We balance our time between research, teaching and service. Whenever one of those obligations becomes too frustrating or repetitive, one can fall back on the other areas for relief and meaning. In particular, the teaching aspect can be very rewarding, especially when students do well, progress and grow. Just yesterday, I got an e-mail that one of my former students was accepted into medical school, thanking me for the excellent preparation in my class for MCATs etc, and of course my reference letter. Seeing students succeed like this is very rewarding to me and beats the satisfaction from publishing a paper or getting a grant.

    As to the meaning behind work, in my view, what gives it meaning to me are those human interactions and how they help other people. Of course, new discoveries in research can also be meaningful, but without the human aspect maybe less so. Of course, I also realize that, in the end, there isn't much meaning to all of this. When we retire, we'll be forgotten soon, and someone else will take our place. In essence, life will go on with or without us. That's why it is important to diversify in life: Work, family, friends, hobbies, exercise... That way, if meaning in one of those aspects is taken away, maybe through no fault of our own, life doesn't crumble because one has other things to fall back on.

    In any case, hang in there, also with your father's illness (I went through that almost 10 years ago). These kind of forks in the road also open opportunity for new endeavours, maybe better than the old ones.
     
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  10. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm a retired technical writer. I gave up on corporate America in 1996, when the small software company that I moved to NYC to work for got gobbled up by a big company with a shaky reputation in employee treatment, and separate specialized tech writing groups ... ugh. I went independent, incorporated myself, and worked on a project basis. I worked in the financial industry, for software development companies, and three aerospace military contractors. I enjoyed my work very much, explaining tech to the mystified. I do understand how Marx's alienation theory applies to those who have to do the same thing every day. I'm glad that didn't happen to me.
     
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  11. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, OK, but is that really 'Marx' or it is just common sense that maybe Marx happened to write down and claim vefore anyone else did? Sounds more like a 'no ****, sherlock' to me that overspecialization takes all the joy out of producing. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that overspecialization is what turns creation into mere production.

    Like building a house. Building a house is prolly the most fun thing there is to do. But no one builds houses. One crew pours foundation, another frames, another plumbs, another runs electrical, another roofs, another finishes. None of them ever actually 'build a house.' Thats how you turn fun into work.

    If thats what Marx said, then he's right, but I doubt anyone needed to hear it from Marx to understand that...
     
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  12. Pred

    Pred Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your line of work. Medicine? You can do family medicine where you’re diagnosing different things every day. Or you’re a brain surgeon and you’re really good at that one thing. Take video production. You can work corporate so you’re doing lots of different things. Maybe not high profile but you have to be a jack of all trades. Or you work at an agency or on a movie set and you’re far more specialized. The work might be more exciting bigger budget but you could be doing 1 thing day after day with lots of pressure? Causes burn out.

    YOU choose what you want to do. Sure. Some people are more talented than others and have more options. Some have little talent or drive and can only do what they can. It’s your life.
     
  13. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    off topic, ym, do the lions still recycle eye glasses?
     
  14. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    marx had many good points, in economics, history, sociology.. his studies in london are among the greatest research projects ever.

    only american "conservatives" could read his work and not find many valuable observations.
     
  15. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    They do! I think a lot of eyeglass stores will collect them for you and send them to the Lions if there isn't a collection box nearby. EyeMasters used to do that.
     
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