Minimum wage and unions

So with Obama bringing up raising minimum wage, I know many are going to bring out the old tired argument that people should get paid what they are willing to accept. I have no particular issue with this viewpoint.

Where I do take issue, is when these same people are those that villainize unions.

When a company accepts a deal with a union this is somehow unfair, but when a worker accepts a deal with their employer, the idea that someone could ever use leverage to gain an unfair advantage in negotiation becomes near impossible to ever occur.

Could someone please explain how this isn't a prime example of having your cake and eating it too?

 

I think minimum wage laws are bull(*)(*)(*)(*), especially federally mandates ones as the cost of living varies all over the country. Wages are essentially agreed upon by the company and the employee, its a contract between them. No reason to get government involved.

Unions are fine as well, if a bunch of workers want to start a union and collectively demand certain benefits or wages from their employer I think they should have the right, at the same time the company should have the right to fire every single one of them. No preferential treatment to either side. This encourages a balancing act between what a union can demand, if they go too far it becomes financially beneficial for the company to jettison it. At the same time the workers can likely get a bit more as finding and replacing everyone would be costly. I also think it would be in the unions best interest to not protect scumbag employees who neglect their jobs and break rules. Employees, companies and unions all have a symbiotic relationship, this idea of its us vs them is just stupid.

I also think public employee unions should be illegal. They are essentially hired and paid by the people, if they don't like their wages or benefits they can move on. Negotiating with politicians for higher pay and benefits isn't the same as negotiating with a company who has a stake in staying profitable. Politicians can okay higher pay and benefits and not worry about what the costs will do a few years down the road when they are out of office or moved on up to the next stage. Its why public sector generally has far higher benefits, these costs are hard to quantify down the road. But public sector pensions are amazing burdens on lots of states now.

 

I believe that if you work for a living you should earn a living.
However I also believe that UNIONS are going to bankrupt this country if they are allowed to prosper. Someone working on an assembly line with no real skills except for turning a wrench all day long shouldn't be making $65.00 an hour. It should be minimum wage or just slightly higher than minimum wage. Unions screwed things up big time by blackmailing GM and other auto manufacturers into paying more than their employees deserved to be paid. More than the job was worth to do. Making cars cost more than they should. The same goes for Wonder bread. Union rules forcing separate deliveries for donuts and bread is just plain stupid, inefficient, and could bankrupt the company, and did. Blame the union for over playing their hand.

Unions are as bad for America as unchecked bottom wage employers.

 

How is it that other countries can establish a high standard of living without a minimum wage?

 

Do these countries have over meddling government at multiple levels that regulate everything, adds unnecessarily onto the costs of labor, and uses exceedingly complicated tax laws to give benefits to certain companies and industries over others?

 

No...No they don't.

Well, maybe Germany does, but without Germany the EU wouldn't be the EU.

 

Which other countries?
Cambodia, Thailand, Hong Kong, nope not those countries. You must be talking about some other countries.

 

Hong Kong HAD no minimum wage until just recently but even when it didn't it still had a relatively high standard of living.

The countries I'm generally talking about Qatar, Germany, Singapore and Switzerland

 

Oh really.
Explain this then.

ie cost of living has out paced wages.

Do we want our citizens living like that in America? Get rid of the minimum wage and it'll happen.
​

​

- - - Updated - - -

 

Germany you say.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...in-urban-poverty-across-germany-a-867209.html

 

Our minimum wage was introduced in 2010. From what it looks like, all of this anecdotal problems are happening right now.

Our gross wages and GDP per capita are still higher than yours. We earn $28 dollars an hour. That's only $3.61 in America wages and our net monthly salaries are relatively the same in some sectors of the economy, while in other sectors our monthly salaries are higher.

- - - Updated - - -

What exactly are you trying to show me?

 

Unions.

 

Singapore doesn't have many unions. Less than 20% of the Switzerland labor force is unionized, as Trade Union membership has been dropping since 1999. And I'd be surprised if anyone in Qatar has ever heard of a union.

Your only case is Denmark where over 85% of the labor force is unionized and you really don't want to use that as an example.

 

So you are in favor of your child being taught by lowest bidder? Or would you prefer to bid against Lockheed for an engineer to teach 4th grade math? And I suppose you're in favor of hiring, what, a couple of thousand HR people for each large school system so they can negotiate a contract with each of the 7.2 Million teachers in our public schools. Now lets talk about how much I'm going to charge you to get shot at and what benefits package I want for my survivors. And what kind of premium can you afford for fire protection and what response time deductible would you like?

 

So then wouldn't it reason that the inverse was true?

That workers are blackmailed into accepting a lower wage?

 

Unions were set up to protect the workers from getting screwed, I have no problem with them doing so. But there is a difference between private and public sector unions. In private sector the company is dealing with the workers, about how much their money they are going to give them. In public sector politicians are dealing with the employees about how much of other peoples money they are going to give them, money they get through threat of force. One is two sides working to find a compromise, the other has 3 sides, and many times one is ignored or left out of the room.

Public sector unions have also failed to help ensure a good product. You can't honestly tell me that our public school system is working well, unions have a big hand in that.

 

Thailand has a minimum wage of 300 Baht (about 10 bucks a day) which came into effect on 1st January this year. It is a federal ruling in an attempt to align all the provinces under the one umbrella. This is a 30-35% increase over the previous minimum wage, meaning that Thailand's lowest income earners earn more than five times more than the minimum wage than workers in neighbouring countries.

 

If I offered you a job for 2 dollars an hour, would you take it?

 

I agree with all of this, but we have to find some kind of limited collective bargaining for public workers as the creation of public unions was in response to the real problem of public jobs paying 20-30% less then the private sector.

- - - Updated - - -

In my position no, but I guarantee there are many in the world that would.

 

If you don't accept it, then how would an elimination of the minimum wage lead to you being blackmailed into accepting lower wages?

 

Because my standard of living is effected by those around me, so if people around me start working for 2$ an hour it will put downward pressure on my wages.

 

People will only start taking $2 dollars an hour because they'll feel that it is a good deal at that time. This either means that their cost of living is decreasing and they can work for $2 dollars an hour, or it could mean that it was the best possible job that they could get. Either way, whether or not $2 dollars an hour is good for you isn't the point. You don't have to settle for $2 dollars. You can negotiate for $3, $4, or $7.

With no minimum wage, employees and employers negotiate the terms of their employment. In most sectors of the US economy, those terms are terms are not negotiated on.

 

I don't disagree with this, I just want to know how this is different then when a company and a union agree to a contract.

 

Unions, strong unions.

 

Well, that's different. Difference is the few can profit MORE from the many when minimum wage is 2 bucks.