Modern American conservatism and libertarianism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Foxfyre, Aug 19, 2019.

?

As an American conservative and/or libertarian I believe in (multiple choice):

  1. Individual liberty and the right to be who and what I am

    87.1%
  2. The right of states and communities to organize the societies they want

    77.4%
  3. Small, necessary, effective central government

    80.6%
  4. Defense of our language, borders, culture, and keeping the peace

    80.6%
  5. Right to self defense of our person, loved ones, property, community

    90.3%
  6. Equal right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness without contribution or participation by others.

    80.6%
  7. Free trade and market driven/capitalistic economy regulated only as absolutely necessary

    80.6%
  8. Elected representatives should make all laws affecting the people materially.

    54.8%
  9. Right to our thoughts, beliefs, principles without being threatened and/or assaulted.

    90.3%
  10. Courts that interpret existing law and do not make law.

    77.4%
  11. Free speech, a free press, freedom of association and religion.

    93.5%
  12. A society takes care of the truly helpless but requires responsibility/accountability

    77.4%
  13. A military strong enough to deter others from provoking us into using it.

    77.4%
  14. Integrity of the electoral process including positive ID to register to vote and to vote.

    80.6%
  15. Other that I will explain in my post.

    16.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    54,010
    Likes Received:
    18,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's all it is. We're going in circles.
     
  2. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Then ask someone whose good pleasure it is to answer idiotic questions.
     
  3. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I will give Goldwater props for keen insight into the nature of the modern American conservative. Some have credited him with being the father of the modern American conservative movement.

    Some Goldwater quotes:

    “The root difference between the Conservatives and the Liberals of today is that Conservatives take into account of the whole man, while Liberals tend to look only at the material side of man’s nature. The Conservative believes that man is in part, an economic, an animal creature; but he is also a spiritual creature with spiritual needs and spiritual desires. Conservatism therefore looks upon the enhancement of man’s spiritual nature as the primary concern of political philosophy. Liberals, on the other hand, — in the name of concern for “human beings” — regard the satisfaction of economic wants as the dominant mission of society.”​

    And this one that embodies most of what I consider those points in the poll for this thread:

    “Let me remind you a conservative is one who fights to expand individual liberty and resist the accumulation of power by those who claim they know best.”​

    For what embodies the modern American liberal but a presumption of superior morality and integrity, a very real belief that they are better people than those who aren't them? And their perception of their 'more pure' moral center entitles them to dictate to everybody else how they must think, believe, speak, behave, live their lives and damn to hell (or socioeconomic ruin) any who dare to disobey them? Goldwater clearly saw that in modern liberalism and rejected it wholeheartedly.

    So yes, Goldwater was pretty much a modern American conservative.

    Buckley also held and promoted many conservative views but I do not believe he was a conservative. He too often opposed reasonable civil rights even as he defended McCarthyism. It was not that he opposed communism and subversive influences in our society and government, but that he justified the cruel and destructive witch hunts McCarthyism employed. Perhaps in his older age, he repented of all that. But I see a person with such views as more neocon authoritarian and/or leftist dictator than true libertarian, i.e. modern American conservative.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  4. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    wrong thread. Sorry
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
    Moi621 likes this.
  5. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I guess you could call me a grumpy old man. My values are...

    get out of my wallet!
    get out of my house!
    get out of my life!
    Get off my lawn!
     
  6. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well it would depend on context of course, but assuming you are referring to mostly busybodies and government, that wouldn't be incompatible with conservatism/libertarianism. :)
     
  7. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Libertarians don't care about national borders, which means they don't care about locks on doors.
     
  8. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Libertarians (big "L") indeed are very close to being anarchists in that regard. But libertarians (small "L") are very strong on individual liberty, the right to one's own property and space, the right to defend oneself, one's loved ones, neighbors, community, etc. The libertarians/classical liberals strongly believe in culture, language, borders, and the ability of a country to defend these. The two are very different animals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  9. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The small l types have a problem then. That small l stuff just means there is something wrong with their ideology, but are willing to overlook it.

    As a grumpy old man, I'm tired of the lot of them. The big L Libertarians who have a huge hole in their ideology, and the small l libertarians who realize that property rights extend to groups as well as individuals.
     
  10. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,720
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem with that Goldwater quote is that it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what "conservatives" have actually been doing during the last three decades.

    It was the Bush/Cheney regime that crapped all over the INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS to PRIVACY and DUE PROCESS under the Law of the Land. Worth noting that not a single "conservative" raised their voices in protest of the heinous vandalism of our individual rights.

    And amongst the electorate at large it was the "conservatives" that DENIED that gays had the individual right to marry the consenting adult of their choice.

    As far as the "conservative" GOP goes they have been violating the individual right to vote with odious voter suppression laws all around our nation in their desperation to hang onto power that they no longer deserve because they do NOT represent We the People.

    So what Goldwater said has been turned ASSBACKWARDS by what passes for "conservatives" today. I would go so far as to say that someone like myself is a conservative per Goldwater's description above but I want nothing whatsoever to do with those who call themselves "conservatives" today because they are opposed to everything I believe in when it comes to expanding individual liberty and fighting the accumulation of power.
     
  11. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have no idea what you mean. Small "L" libertarians, i.e. classical liberals, certainly believe in social contract in which property can be shared for mutual benefit. But personal property is sacred. The large "L" Libertarians get some things right, but would use the government to force everyone to accept the society THEY see is ideal and in that regard, it makes them as authoritarian as the worst of the progressives/statists/leftists/liberals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    there is no social contract in libertarianism. That's some commie garbage.
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    License can mean many things you know. You weren't clear.
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm still interested in your stance of gay marriage. So it seems like you don't think that gay people should have been so bothered about their relationships being recognised by that state. That was what I thought. Why do you think they wanted this? It always seemed to me that the state wasn't preventing them from having a same sex commitment ceremony in front of their family and friends and they would have the same legal rights as married men and women via a civil union.
     
  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    54,010
    Likes Received:
    18,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    no you couldn't have gotten it more wrong. I don't think it's the state's business to recognize it anybody's relationship. As in every marraige that exists. Regardless of the sex of the couple.

    It was preventing them from being equal.

    The state should either be forced to recognize same-sex marriages or forced not to recognize any. I'm a libertarian I don't think states rights Trump individual rights.
     
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well hundreds of thousand of gay couples across the globe seem to think that state recognition is more meaningful than you do, considering that they evidently held off from committing themselves to each other in front of their family and friends until same sex marriage was law.

    Equal in rights?

    Which is the case in the US now, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    54,010
    Likes Received:
    18,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    yeah hundreds of millions of straight couples do to. Just because a lot of people think something doesn't mean it's right.

    good lord it's like I'm talking to a brick f****** wall. This isn't about same-sex couples.



    Yes.



    I stated two things that contradict one another they both can't be right at the same time.
     
  18. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    60,742
    Likes Received:
    18,881
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You have no idea what you're talking about. 1st there is no liberty without self control and I have yet to meet a leftist to whom the very idea of self control. economic or otherwise, was not anathema. Gay marriage is not an issue of liberty it is about compulsory acceptance of immorality. You cannot expand liberty sorry. Liberty like love either is or is not. Liberty cannot exist without self discipline.

    2nd I object strenuously to the notion that liberty is tied up in the simplistic phrase "being who and what I am". The minute you define who you are in terms of what you do you've made your self a slave and sadly reduced your status to that of an amoeba.
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's same sex couples that I'm talking about. They held off from committing themselves to each other in front of their family and friends until same sex marriage was law. That just seems odd to me.

    What rights did they not have that straight couples had?

    I mean that it's the case that US states are forced to recognize same-sex marriages. At least that's my understanding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    54,010
    Likes Received:
    18,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why?


    Rights granted through marraige.



    No that's States being stubborn. They could just not recognize Marriage at all.
     
  21. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well I was hoping to get some insight into why they waited. Perhaps you are as clueless as I am.

    What rights? Civil Unions are equivalent.
     
  22. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2014
    Messages:
    1,564
    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well we have different understandings of both libertarianism and social contract then. Do have a pleasant day.
     
  23. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    To be sure; and anyone with a lick of sense understands that its meaning in "driver's license" doesn't fit what I said.
    That I wasn't clear to you is no concern of mine.
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    54,010
    Likes Received:
    18,401
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why they waited until it was legal for them to get married?



    Marraige is equal.
     
    Margot2 likes this.
  25. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. They could've done as you did and just commit themselves to each other, either with or without family and friends present at a commitment ceremony.

    Equal to what?
     

Share This Page