that's only the case because it's a novelty somewhere around 1% of cars are electric if we move up to 5% 10% 20% it will cost more. And worse it will make electricity to power your home and the grocery stores and everything else cost more. It's diversified energy portfolio is less risky than placing all your eggs in one basket. but charging is already broken and utterly crippling for people who adopt electric vehicles and it only represents 1% of the market. The only people buying these are enthusiasts and they will accept these inconveniences and pains in the ass and it's completely ignore them but people who are not enthusiastic about it who just want a car to go to and fro they're not going to tolerate that. it's not new technology electric cars have existed since 1840 and their brushless electric motor has existence since 1962 it's not new it's been around for decades in some parts of it have been around for over a century. The new technology is the internal combustion engine. It is more complicated to design more complicated to manufacture it should cost more because of that but it doesn't. And the reason why is the rare earth battery. They Don't really control that the bulk of what you're paying for when you buy another car is the battery. You have to source the materials you use to make the battery that cost isn't going to go down as demand increases it's going to go up. subsidies don't insure a viable manufacturing industry it's actually life support for a dying manufacturing industry labor costs being low is what ensures a viable automotive manufacturing industry. If you can manufacture them in China or Mexico cheaper than you can manufacture them in the US even if the US has to try and promote the manufacturing here by putting the local manufacturing on life support (subsidies) the American industry is inevitably going to be killed. If I could buy a hamburger from McDonald's and it costs $25 but I get a $10 Sub City I'm not going to do that if I can buy a hamburger at Burger King for $6 even if I don't get a subsidy. American manufacturing of vehicles and the components will cease to exist because we don't have the means or the will to create massive amounts of lithium-ion batteries and without that the electric car is back to the Stone age. If you're by a vehicle that's manufactured somewhere else the components are manufactured somewhere else and it's brought here in assembled by American workers who are subsidized but it's still cheaper to import a whole built car the American industry will absolutely die that's already happened. If you're ever at the point where you're looking under the hood of a compact Chevy or Ford vehicle look around for manufacturer stamps they aren't manufactured by the Ford motor company. Much of the GM automotive manufacturing is just relabeled Korean cars. GM isn't really a manufacturing company anymore it's a company of holding.
Well, the issue with subsidies is to help US manufacturing to equip to build EVs. It's not a steady state plan. And, you're absolutely right that it doesn't guarantee that these legacy companies will be successful in their reengineering efforts. GMC built an EV Hummer selling for $110K! They're going to die from that kind of silliness. They can't possibly make back their costs of a factory on the sales volume for that. So far, every auto manufacturer believes they need to be successful with EVs, because that's the future. EV sales are at only 1%, but the first flat screen TVs were a tiny percent of sales at the start, too. The same is true for personal computers. US auto uses a LOT of third party parts, because ICEs require a LOT of parts, and most models require different parts. They can't really build companies to create the incredible number of parts required.
The two are not even close. Even families on public assistance can afford to go out and buy a brand new flat screen. How many can even afford an EV is they saved all of their income for an entire year? Oh, and the TV industry changed on their own, as consumers themselves made the choice what they wanted to buy. There was no kind of government mandate about anything ordering them to move from the CRT to LCD. That is the exact opposite of what we are seeing in vehicles. And the thing is, all subsidies do is ultimately harm the lower classes. They can't afford these things, with or without subsidies. And it gets even worse when you look at the large cities. Like LA, where now over 63% of the population like in apartment complexes. The vast majority of which have no capability to charge an EV. And hell, the commute times and distances there are only increasing every year. For many years, I was one of around 100,000 that commuted 60 miles or more every day to get to and from work from a single community. And that was considered the "suburbs" over 20 years ago. Today, that line is another 40 miles farther north. The more the government pushes things like this, the farther out of the reach of most people they become.
Yes. Some would like to go the route of TVs, where we were satisfied with others owning these industries. Some have believed that we should help US auto manufacturers with the EV transition, because it is economically important for America auto manufacturers to survive. (As supported by the fact that the entire world of auto manufacturing believes EVs are the future.) Some have noticed the ICE cost impact on our healthcare expenditure, lost labor, etc. and have considered that encouraging the of replacement of ICE autos is important enough to justify subsidies. What I've suggested is that we need a better understanding of what the factors should be in deciding whether subsidies are justified. Such guidelines should help in deciding whether there is sufficient payoff from encouraging EVs. It would help decide if our subsidies for each well drilled by oil companies are justified. Etc. I don't believe anyone would consider any kind of permanent subsidies for EV manufacturing, so I doubt that is an issue.
I have no idea what that even means, but whatever. I do not think there should be any subsidies at all. No carbon credits (which is where Elron Musk makes his profit), nothing like that. A manufacturing industry should sink or swim on its own and not by artificially affected prices. The same goes with solar roofs, and most of the other such nonsense we have seen in the last 2 decades or so. But it is obvious that to you, it is all some kind of asset transfer scheme. Because almost every time such is brought up, you go immediately to the money. And the government should never be in the business of penalizing or rewarding people as a way to influence their lifestyles.
subsidies for vehicle manufacturing his life support for a dying industry. We only have two car manufacturers in this country and if you count Tesla that's three but there's only two big ones. I don't agree. Even if they all together quit making gasoline hard cars that isn't the future the future is just an end to the automotive industry. Right now it caters to an enthusiast market. The enthusiasts are more than happy to put up with the inconveniences in the unpleasantness of owning one. Just so they can say they have something new and sophisticated and that's fine more power to those people I hope the option exists into the future for them. But average people aren't going to put up with that. The stupid car that you have to bend over backwards for and rearrange your house in your life just to use it is not going to be something that people are going to enjoy that's for enthusiasts. flat screen TVs and personal computers were innovations a less useful car is not. It is an enthusiasts toy. What makes you think electric cars are going to be any different? Everybody doesn't want the same car if they did auto manufacturers would all make the same car. So there are going to be different models they're already are and there's going to have to be parts and components for those models only. It's the same thing. This isn't an innovation it's a novelty or a step toward innovation
You're counting manufacturing facilities. They're owned by two companies or their owned by foreign companies.
No, I am counting manufacturers. But what was it you said? You did not say "domestic", you said two manufacturers. But even if you count US owned, there are still more than just two. AM General is a huge one. As is Chrysler, even though they are part of a conglomerate they are still an American company. Nikola is also there, as is Oshkosh, Thomas, GEM, Lucid, Shelby, Hennessey, and a bunch more that you likely have never heard of. It's not my fault that you are only aware of a tiny segment of this industry. But then you turn right around and complain they are foreign owned, when that was never what you said? And ignoring tons of other companies? AM General came immediately to mind. Mostly known for making the HMMWV, they also make the first ground up taxi cab since Checker closed 40 years ago, the MV-1. Oh, and they also built vehicles for others, like all Mercedes R-class cars were made by them. Not my fault you decided to change you claim, or ignore tons of other ones.
There is NO CHANCE that is how Tesla is making its money. Tesla sales haven't changed due to running out of subsidies in 2022. And, their cars have been pretty darn expensive, and thus appealing to those who are less price sensitive in the first place, regardless of subsidies. You've pointed this out in the past. I think the importance of subsidies has more to do with legacy auto manufacturers that are trying to catch up, and thus are having to spend BILLIONS in building new factories and designing new cars that appeal to early adopters. Plus, it is allowing those who are somewhat price sensitive to move toward EVs, thus reducing pollution in cities, etc. I don't understand your comment on "go immediately to the money". I comment on money when money is important to discuss.
I agree. Some of this gets hidden behind Stellantis, which is a gigantic conglomerate based in the Netherlands. Stellantis owns Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Mopar, Opel, Peugeot, Ram, and Vauxhall. Many tend to think that Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram are US companies. I think America has GM (largest) and Ford, with Tesla far ahead in EVs, which has a tiny but growing percent of auto sales by US companies. One question is how important it is for the US to have GM and Ford.
If it seems too good to be true then it probably is. Futurism Tesla Semis' Range May Fall Drastically When Hauling Things Heavier Than Potato
Hey, it might be a total FLOP!! However, that wouldn't be the first time that a radical new technology hasn't succeeded on its first delivery. Note that in my OP I gave Tesla stats with the underlined warning "Watch your 6".
True, but recharging isn't as much of a problem as is rebuilding engine and drive train damage. The first buyers MIGHT be using them between warehouses that are within the range of a charge. As mentioned before, existing Tesla charging stations are hard to reach with a semi and would take a LONG time to charge a semi truck. If a "diesel electric" were to pull the same weight over the same distance, the diesel in the diesel electric would have to do the same level of work. You can't just claim it wouldn't have to do as much work. The generator would probably be better designed for charging, but still ... Also, in autos the idea of gas generators for an otherwise EV has been a failure. And, a hybrid arrangement would have to have parts that would withstand diesel loads. I just doubt that direction, though maybe someone will give that a try. Charging at a warehouse could be done while unloading/loading. I agree that charging stations for a semi just don't exist. I don't know what it would take to turn truck stops into a useful charging network.[/QUOTE]
no you're not there's only two in the US GM and Ford motor company. so you're one of those people huh? Just two Chrysler is just a brand they aren't to manufacturer not anymore. Before they were owned by stalantis they were owned by Fiat so they're Italian and before that they're owned by Mercedes-Benz so they were German. Nikola was fraud not a car manufacturer. Thomas was defunct in 1919. GEM makes golf carts not cars. Shelby isn't a manufacturer there are modifier. Hennessy makes novelty cars. Oshkosh doesn't make cars. Lucid is owned in the UAE. they only make novelty cars Yeah you can probably find a bunch of them that were defunct in 1919 or find some golf cart companies or some companies that make small toy cars but they're not cars. GM and Ford represent 99% of the industry in the US Tesla represents 1%. You listen to the car company that was defunct in 1919, a golf cart manufacturer an equipment manufacturer and some obscure trashy supercars. what companies lucid that's not domestic golf cart companies companies that went bankrupta century ago why don't you just Packard or Hudson or matchbox. Yeah you most certainly are one of those people Car companies that don't exist anymore don't exist anymore. Companies like Nikolai never existed in the first place outside of scam to commit fraud. I would say I'm surprised you didn't mention Hot Wheels but they're made in Malaysia.
they aren't companies they are brands. Tesla makes novelty cars. Moments just glorious I'm not sure they are important
you generally don't have to rebuild the engine of a semi truck until about 400,000 miles. Your electric truck will probably be on its third battery by then and that is going to be extraordinarily more expensive then rebuilding an engine or drivetrain. And recharging is something you have to do every single day. even then they are less useful as they need down time to recharge there's a reason why we engineered much more complicated machines. It's so they don't have to sit derelict half of the time. and fast charging ruins the battery and shortens the life of the truck [/QUOTE] If a "diesel electric" were to pull the same weight over the same distance, the diesel in the diesel electric would have to do the same level of work. My guess is a coal fired power plant. They'd have to be fast charges for them to be of any use whatsoever and four fast chargers use the same amount of energy as 230 homes. And that's just a charge a crappy little car. We're talking about a truck stop where maybe hundreds of trucks will be so this will take probably more energy than the state of California entirely. It's probably the single dumbest idea I've ever heard. A better idea would be putting the power plant in the frame of the vehicle so you don't have to have an entire state's worth of energy just to support one truck stop and you won't have to have trucks sitting around charging for 8 hours and catching on fire and cold fire plant right there next to it. I think your problem is you think electricity is magical pixie power it's not. It's created by burning fossils just like a diesel engine. So why take away the usefulness of the truck just to pretend like it's green? This is a really stupid religion.
it must have assuredly absolutely will be it's not new technology it's old technology just a stupid use for it. It's kind of like saying beware of leprechauns writing unicorns on a street made of rainbow watch my six for something that can't possibly exist and be functional why? The simple physics breaks this idea. In order to operate in the same capacity as a conventional truck and we're not even including the vast amount of time you have to wait for it to charge. You need a battery that weighs 15 tons. That's not the semi-rig that's just a battery so you've got another five six tons in the rig itself and that's being very generous. So that's 21 tons. An average conventional semi tractor weighs 7 or 8 tons. So an electric semi that could essentially operate in the same capacity as a real semi would only be able to haul 13 tons versus a conventional one being able to hold 35 tons. I'm beginning to think that this is not just a broken idea it's probably the world's stupidest idea.
https://carboncredits.com/tesla-regulatory-carbon-credit-sales-jumps-116/ The fact is, the company is only alive because of carbon credits. That has been known for years. Only in the last two years have they ever made a profit from selling cars. And carbon credits are still more than half of their profits. Gee, sucks when you are trying to argue with somebody that actually knows what they are talking about. What, you think I simply made that up? Oh, from later in the article:
Yeah the batteries are far-fetched. An average semi weighs about at the most 10 tons on average about five it depends on what kind of work it's doing where it's doing it's work. It's an electric semi won't have to have 15 tons of batteries. That's not including the truck or the trailer that's just the battery. So probably another 6 tons of truck. Semis are limited by how much they can weigh based on the amount of Wheels they have are tire contact with the pavement. I don't think there are enough wheels on that semi for it to be a functional semi it needs to be pretty much the entire bottom of it covered with wheels. If it's going to compete with the lightest of light duty semis. With 18 tires which is the most common configuration it can only be gross vehicle weight 80,000 pounds. So if Peterbilt semi with 10 tires can haul a semi trailer with eight tires and if we're talking on the heavy end it can hold 30,000 lb of goods. This Tesla because the truck has to weigh so much or you have to stop every couple of miles to charge it will only be able to carry 10000 lbs. In the downtime to charge it will take longer. The only way I could see making the charging not be cripplingly inefficient is to make it have several different batteries that charge independently. So it will be like charging 10 model s's at the same time and that's the only way you can have a charging session that lasts about 8 or 9 hours.
So you were just talking about the little decal they stick on it you aren't talking about making vehicles? If one factory slaps on 10 different decals that's 10 different auto manufacturers?
Actually, it is a US car company. Are you even aware of what "conglomerate" and "subsidiary" are? Obviously not, as you also dismissed a slew of other companies simply because you did not want to admit you were wrong.
You've made your feelings known pretty clearly by now. That Tesla semi battery weights 5.5 tons. But, you were off by less than 3X! Also, I haven't seen any stats on how much that semi can haul. Have you? Given the shaky info we have, I think we'll have to wait and see.
??? Those brands are all Stellantis. That's who owns them. They are based in the Netherlands. That's what I pointed out and I think you confirmed that, didn't you?
