Ocean acidification...

Discussion in 'Science' started by DennisTate, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This trend of the oceans becoming more acidic could in fact be more dangerous even than global warming.

    A number of breeds of snails now have very weak shells.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification


     
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe that I owe Canada's Green Party Ms. Elizabeth May an apology for the obvious ignorance in the statements that I made to her in an email that I sent to her around the time that I campaigned for the office of Municipal Councilor in the year 2008.

    www.BankingSystemsFlaws.blogspot.ca/


    Last week I wrote a lengthy e-mail to Green Party Leader Elizabeth May. "Ms. May, if you owned a large apartment building and your tenants complained that the rooms were too warm would you listen to the advice of the contractor who was telling you to rip all the insulation out of the walls of this structure?"

    "I don't think that you would because your article indicates that you have a phenomenal intellect and listening to this probably self-interested contractor would be incredibly unwise!"

    "Combating global warming by first getting rid of CO2 is comparable to tearing the insulation out of this hypothetical building. CO2 is not a pollutant. Plants love this compound and some people even seem to feel that the recent greening in some parts of the Sahara Desert is partly attributable to increased levels of CO2. I tend to strongly agree with them in this assertion."

    "Several days ago Mr. Charles Moore informed me that Canada produces roughly only 2.5 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. Our nation could invest billions of dollars into reducing our carbon footprint and yet all this would have essentially zero effect on the global environment if China and India did not take similar measures.... besides....CO2 IS NOT A POLLUTANT... PLANTS LIVE ON IT AND RISING WORLD OCEAN LEVELS ARE ALMOST CERTAINLY THE GREATEST MOST IMMEDIATE THREAT POSED BY GLOBAL WARMING TO EVERY COASTAL COMMUNITY!!!!!!!!! (E-mail, September 11, 2008)

    Ms. May deserves credit for encouraging Canadian political leaders to take environmental issues more seriously but at this time I feel that she has far too much confidence in the proposals put forward at Kyoto. The skepticism that Prime Minister Harper had for this accord seems to have been based on sound reasoning. Liberal Leader Stephane Dion was wise to hope for more time to further study this complex subject before an election.


    .....
     
  3. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    Indeed.. If it leads to a mass die-off of lifeforms in the ocean, this will likely in turn affect the climate and land organisms as well, perhaps triggering the next mass extinction event. As far as I know, that's how all such events get started, is in the oceans...
     
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  4. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]



    http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com/ocean/critical-issues-ocean-acidification/

     
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  5. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It does suck that climate science doesn't bring in the money. A side benifit of continued space exploration could be the ability to deal with our own environment better though. Clearly it would start small scale but if it could take off (ha pun) we could see some real research and effort put into it. Imagine if mining the moon became reasonable. I guarantee we'd start looking at how to get an atmosphere and self sustaining environment going; terraform the moon. Supposedly it's chock full of H3 which is also supposedly a good fuel source. Unfortunately it would have to become economically viable, and lets face it we're going to keep burning old dinosaurs for a long time to come. Even if we switch cars to electric it's still a huge source of electricity. Would be nice if we could just go nuclear. Nothing against alternate energy but it is expensive. If we could get away from oil though that would be fantastic. No more fracking, no more Middle East BS, but it's not happening while it's cheap.

    Too bad about alternate energy sucking too, I'd totally spend the money to go off the power grid if it was worth it.
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Exactly!

    It is clear that I did not make that connection at all back in 2008:

    I had no idea at that time how excess atmospheric carbon gets transformed into carbolic acid in our oceans!
     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In one of my visits to the Antigonish Green Party office during one of the elections I did suggest that the Green Party should consider printing up "Green Party Dollars" or a "Green Party Volunteerism Hour." Nearly thirty percent of the economy of North America is some form of volunteerism so if Canada's Green Party actually turned my proposal to the Liberal Party into reality........... it could be surprising how large a role a "Green Party Dollar" or "Green Party Volunteerism Hour" could play in creating green jobs?



     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Now this diagram has the power to convince a significant percentage of us who felt that more trees might just be all that was needed to control atmospheric carbon that we are almost certainly seriously in error!

    I also owe an apology to Sir Richard Branson, Mr. Al Gore, Dr. James Hansen and the other members of the "Virgin Earth Challenge" team!


    http://www.politicalforum.com/humor...ssions-25-million-virgin-earth-challenge.html

    My two somewhat humorous submissions for $25 million Virgin Earth Challenge.
     
  9. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't see how inventing a worthless currency to pay people for jobs that are not creating a profit is a viable solution. What will help is when the electric car gets cheaper, when we stop with restrictions on nuclear power, and hopefully alternate energy will start becoming more viable. If solar panels were effective enough to cover my energy needs I'd buy them. I'm paying under $1000 a year in power costs, so if I could pay say $5000 and be energy independant I'd do it. We're not at that point though, and I'm certainly not in the right climate either (Portland is made of rain). Once a Tesla is affordable I may get one, though I don't think I'll be replacing my motorcycle with an electric one.
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is one possibility.......... Imagine that a "Green Party Dollar" has been printed up............. and imagine that Canada's Green Party publicly states that they want investors for a company....... ran by long time members of the Green Party and they wish to use Green Party Dollars to raise a sufficient number of Canadian dollars to purchase controlling interest in one of Canada's many provincial power companies?!

    Imagine that the goal is to do testing on Solar Roadways to see if this technology can be viable up here in Canada?

    http://www.solarroadways.com/intro.shtml

    One of the advantages to a roadway built with these solar panels is that we would not have to plow the snow off them...… and we would not have to add sand and salt to those roads. The actual amount of money that could be saved in this way is actually pretty incredible.

    Solar Roadways could produce some extra electricity at least during the summer months so.... there would have to be a legitimate deal with the provincial power company to allow Solar Roadways to connect to the provincial grid to add that excess electricity to the grid.... at least during certain months.

    The testing of Solar Roadways up here in Canada would be relevant to many American states....... it would certainly be noticed by some officials in Oregon.

    Of course the pilot project would only take place on roadways that were already in need of being repaved anyway...… so the cost of repaving in a sense would be deducted from the cost of using this new technology?!
     
  11. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can't just print a currency and expect it to have a value, that's my argument against that. May as well just hand out Monopoly money. As for solar roads it's a cool idea but that sounds insanely expensive. If those panels were a few bucks a pop maybe but I'd wager each one would be several hundred dollars. I could see Portland trying to do it though, the city loves to throw away money. Then again the city does hate the roads which is why it continues to divert money for the roads to arts and crafts rather than fix all the pot holes. There's a reason my motorcycle is made for on and off road driving.

    [​IMG]

    Thank god this city is run by retards, or extremely corrupt, not sure which one. Anyway I don't know about the solar road but I have seen some solar panels along stretches of highway which doesn't seem like a bad idea. Again though ti comes down to cost and efficiency. Electric cars though, that's a good direction IMO, well other than the fact that we need to figure out what to do with the heavy metals in the batteries. I will say though that it does (*)(*)(*)(*) me off that the city has free chargers all over the place. I can't get free fuel for my truck but if I drive an electric vehicle then apparently it's on the tax payers to charge my car? I mean the cops arrest homeless kids for charging their phones with outlets at public parks (which is insane). Anyway going off on a bit of a rant. Alternate energy comes out with a lot of cool idea, but it's almost always crazy expensive and not as good a just burning oil, coal, or whatever. It needs to get cheaper and more efficient and then it'll be used all over.
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are correct that we can't just print money and it become valuable but….. the town of Ithaca New York has chosen a unit that anybody can understand more easily than they can the idea of a "dollar?"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours
    America has to figure out some way to deal with the implications of the film "Death By China."

    The USA in my opinion…… produces by far the best English language films in every category.

    Homeless people in the USA could be hired to as actors to play the role of themselves……. by a "Portland Oregon Homeless Persons Film Production Coop?"

    The films…… that they star in become the metaphorical "gold" that backs up the value of the proposed….."Portland Oregon Volunteerism Hour Cooperative."

    The notes that are printed become a measuring instrument to measure the effort by homeless people to discuss what type of films they would wish to do……. what types of "volunteerism" they would like to engage in to earn their salaries that is partly paid in "volunteerism hours" but minimum wage would have to also be paid in USA dollars. The "volunteerism hours" could be a bonus?! Even if it is only for one day per week…. this could really improve some lives?!

    Certain groups would tend to be more interested in this type of initiative than others…….
     
  13. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm still not seeing it work. In your example unless someone else is going to take that currency in place of real US dollars you've basically created a currency for the homeless to trade with each other which is as worthless as the paper it's printed on. Interesting fact about the homeless here in Portland: the cities surrounding Portland literally send their homeless to Portland via the lightrail. I guess there is some agreement between the cities to do so, not sure if it is official or not. The reason is that there is an annual state fund that pays counties for their homeless population, and so the surrounding cities don't have to deal with homeless people and Portland (well Multnomah county) gets paid to take care of the homeless the other cities send in. We do have a good bit of homeless helping infrastructure, and I'm sure there are plenty of officials robbing that fund blind.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting!

    There are circumstances under which a local currency experiment tends to be successful.

    During the Great Depression the city of Worgl, Austria initiated an experiment in small scale local currencies. Over one thousand communities in the USA soon did something similar. The experiment was so successful that the President was soon advised to compete with what these communities had accomplished on their own.

    http://www.whatcomwatch.org/php/WW_open.php?id=717

     
  15. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It can work given the right circumstance. The scrip I remember hearing about was the currency mines and factories used to pay their employees with. The currency was worthless outside of the company store, so the employees were forced to purchase the products that the company purchased for them from that company store. Companies essentially got away without paying their employees but instead making them work for necessities, which they would provide. The key to currency is that it is accepted by other as a currency with value. Certainly creating a currency can work as Bitcoin has shown, but it needs to fill a need, not just be issued for no work. The whole reason Bitcoin works is that it is a self regulated currency which fills a need; anonymity on the internet. It could have just as easily flopped, but enough people went for it and it's become a big deal. It's also worth noting that it wasn't used to pay anyone, people started mining it (weird deal) when it came out and then others wanted it as a commodity and bought it for real money. Other accepted it in exchange for goods and services thus bringing the currency about.

    For a green currency to work it would have to find people who want it and are willing to pay real money for it in order to give it value. Since green currency doesn't solve a problem other than paying people in something other than a current legal currency, it's not likely to have any value. You could go the route of the old coal mines and create a shop which accepts green currency. By having that shop sell unique items and only accept that green currency you could create a market much like MMOs do today, but it would still be very limited.

    These are just my thoughts, my degree is in computer science not finance so who knows maybe I'm way off. I think I'm correct though. You have to have an exchange using that currency or it just sits there and is worthless. Going back to Bitcoin who knows how much staying power it really has. There was a push a while back for more places to accept it but I since they shut down Silkroad where you basically had a black market accepting that currency I haven't heard much about it. Even if companies took it what would be the point unless they could redistribute it. They could have all the Bitcoins ever made but if no one is being paid in it or exchanging their money for it then it becomes worthless.
     
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very interesting indeed!

    Actually...............… I am convinced that this is, at its core, a "database" problem?!

    Volunteerism in some form makes up well over twenty percent of the economy of North America.

    If that volunteerism could be organized into a database.......... made more efficient and effective.........… and directed at addressing problems that are difficult for the government to solve......… then a series of documentary plus reality film projects could potentially act as evidence that can be used to indicate that something is being accomplished in a specific area.

    Two cities would be a great place to begin a challenge along this line...… Hollywood, California and Portland, Oregon for the very reasons that you have already mentioned.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...ations-should-print-their-own-currencies.html

    Large churches in democratic nations should print their own currencies.

    .................

    There are two major groups of people in North America that do a lot of volunteerism........ if through a database they could be encouraged to cooperate more with each other.........… something close to full employment could be achieved.....(I think)?!

    ..................…

    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...urrencies-finance-films-address-problems.html

    New Age Communities can print local currencies finance films that address problems?!



    At this time I tend to believe that New Age Groups may be the most likely to successfully initiate local currencies and use them to finance film projects in which homeless people could become actors playing the role of homeless people.... .which could easily finance their buying or renting homes????!!!!


    ..............

    Volunteerism that emerges out of churches...… in a sense represents the political right....... and volunteerism that is motivated by more of a New Age approach to spirituality......… would fit quite well with the political left.
     
  17. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Somebody who in my opinion could do an excellent job of playing the role of a major star in a rather New Age angle on this would be near death experiencer Christian Andreason...…

    http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/

     
  18. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I remember when I was a kid on a spring night when it rained if we were driving all you would see is millions and millions of frogs and other amphibians all over the wet roads.

    There would be just so many and as I got older I noticed how each year there would be less and less and now hardly any.

    This is of course because the amount of Sulfer Dioxide that is being pumped into the atmosphere by man.

    When Sulfer Dioxide mixes with the water vapor in our atmosphere it comes down as Acid Rain and this acidity kills and degrades the eggs of frogs and other amphibians and animals.

    As well when I was a kid when mowing are large lawn I would accidentally kill 2 to 4 snakes every time I mowed.

    Now I hardly see snakes anymore.

    AboveAlpha
     
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  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I noticed the same thing about the abundance of frogs when I was a kid. It is great to know the specifics on why this has been happening!
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Up here in Canada being members of a different political party doesn't seem to lead to quite as much animosity as is often the case south of the border.

    For instance…… Green Party Leader Ms. Elizabeth May is a very good friend of Minister of Justice Peter MacKay's mom.

    The Canadian federal riding of Central - Nova could become a good place for the Conservative Movement and the Environmentalism Movement to take several steps closer to each other.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...008-campaign-my-apology-ms-elizabeth-may.html
    Ignorance shown in my 2008 campaign, my apology to Ms. Elizabeth May!
    Back in 2008 when I campaigned for the office of municipal councilor my ignorance regarding the importance of reducing atmospheric carbon is out there for all to see!

    I am wondering if the information regarding the increasing acidity of the oceans can alter how we view the importance of altering our economy?
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    As we take a relatively pristine rock, Earth, and populate it today with approximately 7 billion citizens, and over the centuries polluted the soils, rivers, lakes, oceans, and atmosphere...regarding all things organic...bad things are going to happen. The only question is how bad can things get and when will this happen?

    Are ~7 billion people going to change their lives to do better than we have in the past...hell no. A huge portion of this 7 billion either are unaware of these issues or refuse to acknowledge these issues or simply cannot take any personal actions. We are receiving extremely critical scientific reports now that suggest we slow and stop immediately or we will pay a huge price...obviously 7 billion world citizens are not going to head this warning so it's obvious to me we are going to pay a huge price sometime in the near future.

    Further, we are not going to stop population growth which means whatever issues we have today will be exacerbated tomorrow and the next day and so on. Frank Drake had 6-7 variables in an equation to determine how many extraterrestrial civilizations there might exist in the Universe. One variable was the length of time that intelligent civilizations might last? Whether it be from a natural disaster, or we annihilate ourselves with WMD, or a foreign body strikes Earth, or some disease/bacteria takes it's toll, or in the case of this thread we abuse our environment and natural resources and over-populate rendering the Earth unlivable, these and other events can end all that we have in a very short time.

    It's unfortunate only 5% of the Earth's citizens give a crap about this stuff...5% cannot solve these problems for the other 95%...
     
  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I personally am convinced that even 3.91% of the popular vote in Canada can potentially transform the economy of Canada, and the nation of Jordan as well as Israel.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Canada


    http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=394887&p=1064729799#post1064729799

    Ignorance shown in my 2008 campaign, my apology to Ms. Elizabeth May!
    .........


    Honorable Minister Elizabeth May:

    My apologies for the lack of professionalism in the way in which I express this....... but...… I am convinced that "You CAN do it." (Dr. Moses Coady)

    What I mean is that you are in a perfect position to alter the entire world economy and play a massive role in getting a number of green energy devices onto the market.

    Frankly..... I believe that you and your Green Party are in a wonderful position to raise a significant percentage of the financing for a plan to bring an increased level of peace to the Middle East through turning the deserts of the nation of Jordan green as the cornerstone of an increased level of cooperation between Canada, Jordan and Israel.

    Ms. May, you and your Green Party could set up P. M. Stephen Harper to play a huge role in making the Middle East a much safer place so that virtually all that he has to do is go to a meeting, sign a document and cut a ribbon but basically all the paperwork could be already done for him.


    http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...s-p-m-brokering-jordan-israel-peace-deal.html

    Please pray or meditate on Canada's P. M. brokering Jordan - Israel peace deal?



    I know that many of you pray or meditate so please

    pray that P. M. Stephen Harper initiate a peace deal between Jordan and Israel?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am a member of a different Canadian political party but……… I have to admit that P. M. Stephen Harper is for good reason regarded as a rather "Davidic" figure by a high percentage of Israelis.

    What he did for Israel back in 2011 at the G-8 was one of the most courageous and wise acts by a political leader that I have seen since I began to watch world events back in the '70's!

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...per-stands-alone-at-g8-summit/article4263322/

    On Israel, Harper stands alone at G8 summit - The Globe and Mail

     
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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  24. Hairball

    Hairball Well-Known Member

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    The colder the ocean is ... the more acidic ocean water becomes.

    For instance, take a beer, open it, and let it get warm. Then take a sip. It will taste flat.

    That is because higher temperatures and lower barometric pressure does not let as much CO2 be entrained in the water.

    That's why it goes "flat". The warmer water gets, the less gasses it can entrain. Open a crisp ice cold beer and take a sip. Then compare that to a warm beer. Which one has more carbonation????

    And the colder water is, the more carbonic acid it can contrain. Ocean cooling causes ocean acidification. Global warming does not.
     
  25. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Dennis....I have Family in Canada and I go to Canada often.

    With the exception of some real PAINS IN THE A$$E$ in Quebec....there really isn't any difference between Canadians and Americans.

    The two Nations share Family....the longest unprotected boarder in the world....Sports.....Canada and the U.S. exists as a Unified Military Command.....plus the vast majority of Canadians live along the boarder with the United States.

    When the Soviet Union and even Russia to this day put out their anual Military Threat Assessment of Nations....they ALWAYS put the United States and Canada together as a single entity.

    And for all intents and purposes the two Nations are one.

    As far as Global Warming and Acid Rain.....there is a LOT that can be done as far as Sulfer Dioxide emmisions but as far as CO2....we are already past a tipping point.

    AboveAlpha
     
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