Part 36 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Especially given the fact that the Gospel of John was written (100-120 AD). Given Jesus was killed around 30 - 3 years after his ministry began. This would make the disciple at least 20 in the year 27 AD = 93 to 113 years old at the time the Gospel of John was written.

Some traditions hold that John was martyred many decades earlier. Either way the gospel of John is almost certainly Pseudopigrapha.

 

People have become so used to accepting what they are told they cannot think for themselves.

From Mitts post. Quote Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?"

"Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God." ---John 11:25-27 NLT Quote.

For Martha to have said this is simply make-believe. It goes contrary to everything that Martha had ever been taught. The Messiah was to be human, humble but strong. To give his life for her sins was against everything she knew. She was responsible for her own sins.

Despite what various disciples are purported to have said about Jesus, their actions belie their words, as is evident on the Emmaus Road.

Matthew 14:13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns.
How did they know where this solitary place was? How was the news spread?. Oh, of course, mobile phones. They downed tools, got in their cars or public transport and made their way there.. er ... where? They hadn't stopped to make sandwiches so at the end of the day - around 5pm - they were hungry. So a miracle has to occur.
The real, miracle is how they heard about Jesus, found out where he was and made it there in a few hours. Then, of course, how did many of them get permission to leave work on the spur of the moment. The people were poor and the loss of a days wages would have had nagging wives berating their husband on return home.

Only when you understand the times can you evaluate the stories. Most of these stories of the Jewish Preacher have been added to Gospel writers to give a Christian slant. Just as the OT has been misused to make Jesus a prophesied Messiah.

 

Everybody knows Clay and his manager cheated to win the first fight! Cooper put him on his arse, then at the bell Dundee slit his glove to buy him extra time to recover!
I've never drank, drugged or smoked, I don't need it..

 

1- There are at least half a dozen people in PF besides yourself who subscribe to the old "Christianity was a con trick' consp-theory mate, we've heard it all before (yawn..zzzzzzz...)
2- You've got 4 gospels and 23 other books about Jesus in the New T, how many more do you need?..

 

There are 4 gospels and 23 other books in the New T about Jesus, how many more do you need?

 

The idea that John was written by the disciple John defies logic in many ways. In Mark - written 4-5 decades earlier - Jesus is deified at around the age of 30 and his dying words were " My God, My God, why have you forsaken me"

The author of Matt writing a few decades later uses Mark as a source document (omitting only a few passages that he felt were derogatory to Jesus and the disciples- pious fraud by omission). He then adds a few things such as a genealogy back to David - in keeping with messianic tradition. He also adds a virgin birth - the divinity of Jesus is evolving as church doctrine evolves. Matt also adds the "smoking Gun".

In Mark there are no stories of Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death (proof positive of the resurrection promise). Matt adds these stories to the story of Jesus. He does however keep the last words of Jesus intact.

By the time we get to the writing of John a few decades later - the divinity of Jesus has evolved further. Jesus is not deified at age 30 or at birth. Jesus is described as being "pre-existent" with God. The "Logos" - a term which meant "emissary between God and Man" - a term well known to all Greeks at the time (mistranslated to mean "word" in modern Bibles") Logos does mean "word" in Greek but in a religious context the meaning is much more.

In John, due to evolving Christian doctrine, the last words of Jesus are changed to "it is finished" - we can't have God forsaking Jesus now can we.

Tradition holds that the author of Mark got his material directly from Peter. If John the disciple is the author of the Gospel bearing his name, how on earth can these stories be so completely different ?

Would the disciple - even if he had not been in attendance at the crucifixion - not heard that the last words of his savior implied that God had forsaken him ? This is preposterous mind bending madness.

There are other serious problems such as the fact that John - an illiterate non Greek speaking fisherman - would have written in the way he did using Pauline Hellenic concepts. Was John not a member of the Church of Jerusalem ? - the Church founded by the disciples and led James ? The Church at the time of the writing of John was moving away from anything Jewish and the anti Jewish sentiment of the Gospel of John reflects this as well as a non- church of Jerusalem perspective.

 

Nobody knows mate, maybe we should send out a probe..

 

You seem fixated on Joe Smith mate, come on admit you're a Mormon..

 

Hahaha you atheists are funny guys..
This is the Bible according to you-
Genesis- LIES!
Exodus- LIES!
Leviticus- LIES!
Numbers- LIES!
Deuteronomy-LIES!
Joshua- LIES!
Judges-LIES!
Ruth-LIES!
1 Samuel-LIES!
2 Samuel- LIES!
1 Kings- LIES!
2 Kings- LIES!
1 Chronicles-LIES!
2 Chronicles-LIES!
Ezra- LIES!
Nehemiah-LIES!
Esther-LIES!
Job-LIES!
Psalms-LIES!
Proverbs-LIES!
Ecclesiastes-LIES!
Song of Solomon-LIES!
Isaiah-LIES!
Jeremiah-LIES!
Lamentations-LIES!
Ezekiel- LIES!
Daniel- LIES!
Hosea- LIES!
Joel-LIES!
Amos-LIES!
Obadiah-LIES!
Jonah-LIES!
Micah-LIES!
Nahum-LIES!
Habakkuk-LIES!
Zephaniah-LIES!
Haggai-LIES!
Zecharia-LIES!
Malachi-LIES!
Matthew-LIES!
Mark-LIES!
Luke-LIES!
John- LIES!
The Acts-LIES!
Romans-LIES!
1 Corinthians-LIES!
2 Corinthians- LIES!
Galatians-LIES!
Ephesians- LIES!
Phillipians-LIES!
Colossians-LIES!
1 Thessalonians-LIES!
2 Thessalonians-LIES!
1 Timothy-LIES!
2 Timothy-LIES!
Titus-LIES!
Philemon- LIES!
Hebrews- LIES!
James-LIES!
1 Peter-LIES!
2 Peter- LIES!
1 John- LIES!
2 John-LIES!
3 John-LIES!
Jude-LIES!
Revelation-LIES!

 

Now you are just building a big Straw man. I did not say Christianity was a "con trick" or some big conspiracy. I believe that Jesus was a real person.

What you can not seem to handle is the fact that the Bible contains interpolation, omission, additions, and so on. This does not mean that the whole Bible is false - just that some of it has been proven to be falsehood.

Legitimate seminaries actually teach this btw - such the fact that "Christ shedding tears of blood" is known to be a later addition by an overzealous scribe wanting to show the humanity of Jesus.

You can run to the playground and stick head deep in the sands of denial if you like but, this will not change the fact that many of the stories in our modern Bible had significant alterations over time - never mind being correct to begin with. This will not change the many contradictions and conflicts between the various stories or the fact that the Jesus of Mark is different from the Jesus of John Matt and Luke.

My question is simply - which is the real Jesus ?

 

Indeed. That's the way the Brit press "covered" it. When Sir 'Enry lost the second fight, they didn't even bother to make excuses.

To each his own.
Maybe you should sip a good Single Malt and relish a Cohiba. Then light up a big one, share with friends. You might find you've been missing out all these years. There's nothing wrong with having a open mind.

 

1- Wait a minute Jack, in one breath you atheists say the bible has been edited over the centuries to make it look good, then in your next breath you say it's full of contradictions!
Make up your mind and tell us if its been prettied up or hasn't it?..

 

We don't need more. We just need one or two from reliable sources. Ya know, actual people who actually saw and heard the stuff first hand. Ya know, from people who don't pretend they heard behind-closed-doors conversations.

 

Considering none of those are eyewitness accounts, several more at least and you need at least one eyewitness account that isn't made by a member of Jesus's cult.

 

1- Clay and his manager were proven cheats (they admitted the glove-slitting incident years later), so for all we know they cheated in the return bout too by putting something on Clay's gloves to make Enery's eyes water. Once a cheat, always a cheat..
2- If booze and drugs (including tobacco) help people face up to life it's none of my business, I don't need them myself.(insert 'smug grin' emoticon here)
PS- Jesus told his mates at the last supper- "The next time I drink wine I'll be drinking it fresh and new with you in my father's kingdom".
That's me out then, I don't drink (sniffle)

 

You just can not seem to respond without putting words in my mouth or misrepresenting my words so you have something to attack - Mr. Strawman.

1) I am not an atheist
2) I just told you that it "Seminaries" teach that the Bible has been edited over time. Do you know what a "Seminary" is ? Does the fact that Seminaries teach that the Bible has been edited over time make those attending these Seminaries "Atheists" ?
3) The fact that the Bible is full of contradictions is simple fact - sticking head in sands of denial is not going to change this.
4) It is no wonder you are so confused if you can not figure out that just because the Bible has been "prettied up" does not mean that all contradictions were removed.

 

Gospel-writers Matthew and John were actual disciples, you can't get better credentials than that..
As for the other 25 books in the New T, why on earth would anybody sit down and write packs of lies?
That's the question that always trips up atheists because we know the early Christians weren't in it for money or power-
"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit...Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them, not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (2 Cor 2:17,1 Peter 5:2-3)

Furthermore, being a Christian was a dangerous business, so I ask again why would anybody want to "invent" Christianity? Below- Stephen is killed by the snooty priests lackeys-

 

1- Ah, so you're not an atheist! Good, keep it up and you'll make Archbishop..
2- Wow, you use the word Seminary/Seminaries 4 times in one sentence, I hope you're not letting them do your thinking for you. Remember, a fool with a theological degree is still just a fool..
3- The fact that there are contradictions in the Bible proves its come down to us unchanged over the centuries, human warts and all, so we can therefore trust it..

 

Another getout.

 

• The bible has been edited over the centuries to make it look good
• The bible is still full of contradictions

That just shows how inept those involved really were.

 

Are you saying that no one saw all of those one-on-one conversations between two people in the wilderness in the Old Testament stories? What about the guy who was with Jesus when he was in the desert without food and water for 40 days and forty nights and when the devil flew Jesus to the tops of the buildings and recorded their conversations?

 

LOL The fact that there are contradictions in the Bible does not prove it is unchanged - refer to your own comment about theologins !

Silly Rabbit - The fact that there are contradiction proves there are contradictions. The fact that passages from older Bibles do not match newer versions proves the book has been changed.

 

There are no contradictions/errors in the Bible. The Holy Bible is the infallible Word of God. Granted there might be some minor differences, however differences are not contradictions. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled.

There has been many instances where people have said they found a supposed error in the Bible only to find out that the Bible is correct. One good example is that at one time, skeptics used the Bible's references to the Hittite civilization as "proof" that the Bible was a myth. There was never any such people as the "Hittites" according to the science of the day.

However, in 1876, the first of a series of discoveries was made, and now the existence of the ancient Hittite civilization is well documented. Archaeology continues to bolster the Bible’s historicity. As Dr. Henry M. Morris has remarked, "There exists today not one unquestionable find of archaeology that proves the Bible to be in error at any point."

To every supposed Bible contradiction/error there are intellectually and viable plausible answers.
So once again, there are no contradictions/errors in the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible is the infallible Word of God!

We Read in Scripture:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work." ---2 Timothy 3:16-17 NLT

 

Pope Sixtus V wrote his own Bible and slapped anyone who said that it was BS.
http://www.romancatholicism.co.uk/rewrotebible.html

 

I see...so scripture is truth because scripture says scripture is truth?

Damn...Tolkien should have written a forward saying Middle Earth is real so we could all live in the world of Elven wonders and magically eliminate evil.