Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Exodus was around 1450 BC, the conquest around 1400 BC. Avarice contained Caananite style houses. An exception being a palace in the middle with a courtyard of 12 pillars. There was a pyramid type burial structure, which had an Asian featured statue with a coat of many colors. Very oddly the grave was open and all human remains in bones were gone. It has been stayed in scripture that would be stories just like the ones you cite.

 

Have you ever considered that from the beginning of humankind there has been the need for a creator in the minds of man. They could not understand the world around them so they created a 'god'. 30000 years ago men were drawing therianthropes on cave walls. Over time therianthropes became gods in ancient civilisations like the Egyptians, Greeks and even the Romans.
Deciding on a god isn't a sudden decision. It is gradual. Throughout the OT there is a wavering between gods - Baal (Lord), El. Yahweh and other gods. The choice for Israel was made in Babylon, and from the return to the Promised land and Jerusalem, Jahweh was chosen and to Yahweh was attributed many of the attributions accorded to El. The Kingdom became a theocracy. Ezekiel saw to that. Priests ruled. Kings there were - and even a 'ruling' Queen - but the power lay with the Priesthood. This is apparent throughout the Maccabean Kingdom where various priests vied for the position of High Priest. With their own supporter armies they literally fought for the position. In simple terms this actually cost them their Kingdom when the Romans took over. Christianity wasn't a sudden religion. It took several centuries and many 'conventions' to actually formulate the doctrine. There were sects that believed Jesus was divine and those that didn't. Those that believed in the trinity and those that didn't. There were many bishops preaching different doctrines. It wasn't until the Council of Nicea under Constantine that things began to be put together. Even then some bishops could not agree and were ostracised. Many Bishops did not even attend the Council. It was really Constantine's influence that created Christianity.
As to your belief that Jesus is divine. I see no evidence of that. Matthew makes Jesus divine in a fanciful story that includes misinterpreting the OT scriptures and adding Jesus name to a verse that clearly talks about Israel, and issues a genealogy which is clearly one that is very, very questionable, mainly to the fact that Abraham etc clearly did not exist. It was simply something that he had been brought up to believe. He and Luke's stories contradict each other. A close study of ancient Laws and Customs show that if the stories are true Joseph's family would end up in Egypt and Nazareth at the same time and that possibly a hundred thousand people would end up descending on Bethlehem because they owned property there. That would make Bethlehem a major city in the old world - not a village or small town. Not only would there be no room in the Inn (which there probably wasn't anyway due to another Jewish custom which, by the way, led Jesus to the well and meeting with the woman of Samaria) but no room in Jerusalem or surrounding country.

 

Injeun. An addition to the above.
Your quote 'the Jews are too smart for that'. You are simply not thinking in the way that people of the 1st millenia BCE thought. You have modern knowledge and science. They were still 'superstitious'.
To understand what the Bible says you must understand the background etc of the day. Close 21st minds and try to understand their ways and thinking.

 

No I haven't. In fact, I was born into a non religious home. My life, hobbies, family, traditions, conscience, work, goals, and vices, were the all of me.

With me, the visitation of Gods spirit was sudden, out of the blue, like a hawk slamming into a dove.

In my experience it was.

Neither is my knowledge based on anything tangible.

Now that you mention it, his spirit which awakened me to remembrance of him was more like milk and honey due to its familiarity, warmth, and peace, than it was to water. That it satisfied a want and need of which I was unaware, and that it was greater than my life, is why I say that my life is in him. And in looking to him in all things, it is something of a fast from this life as one might fast from eating. But I don't base any of this on scriptures, either read or heard. Though I may bring them to the table after the fact or after having read them. First though is the spirit which is the foundation of my conversion.

 

trevorw2539 said: ↑
As to your belief that Jesus is divine. I see no evidence of that.

Here you go... and besides providing as strong a proof in anything. And ignoring this evidence is also proof that there is NOTHING you from your false belief


"With physical properties unlike anyone has ever seen." If you continue to ignore a piece of evidence such as this Trevor.. you are not interested in honest debate, you are interested in something sinister. What happened to you? Why are you no longer a preacher? Why did you get divorced? are they related? did you find nothing relevant to your circumstances in the "Screwtape Letters"?
I am praying for you Trevor, I pray that you come to the realisation of the Bible as the inerrant word, and to the Words of Jesus of Nazarene, Lord and Savior, Creator of the Universe, as the ultimate Truth.

 

So you have the DNA of Jesus? Hundreds of people were crucified, covered in shrouds.
You know that there are millions of relics in the world - all attributed to parts of the cross, nails that crucified Jesus, bones of the saints etc etc. There are even the steps from Pilates Praetorium up which Jesus is supposed to have ascended in his trial. These stairs - Scala Sancta - are displayed at times for the faithful to kneel their way up in prayer. They are displayed occasionally for believers to kneel their way up in prayer. Many Catholic churches claim to have relics from the Crown of Thorns. Probably enough to make several crowns. In 2007? an ossuary was found with 'Jesus 'bones in it. There are ossuaries with the names of Jesus family, and his wife Mary Magdalene.
We have no evidence except words that nails were used. The Romans often used ropes for crucifixion. There is no evidence what shape of 5 Roman crosses was used to crucify Jesus. Early writers use different shapes. The shape of the cross you see today was decided in the 2nd century CE.
We are taught from the Bible that Jesus carried his cross/Simon of Cyrene carried his cross. Almost certainly untrue. People were led to the place of execution. Wood used for the crosses was too scarce and uprights were kept in place and only moved when the victim arrived. The Via Dolorosa - upon which Jesus is said to have travelled 600 metres to Calvary, has been changed more than once.
The Shroud is now the property of the Roman Catholic Church. Before that it was in the Catholic Cathedral in Turin. They dare not let it be a fraud.
Find the DNA of Jesus as evidence irrefutable to everyone. The rest is simply conjecture.

 

If you study religions you will find that as knowledge increased so religion altered. Today, religion (Christian) is declining in educated countries with the advance of Science.

Freud has an explanation for your experience but you are happy with your own. So be it.
Incidentally, you said that Jews are to smart for that. Modern Jews are. Latest figures from Jewish sources show that over 50% of the Jews worldwide no longer practise their religion, and many in Israel are 'secular' jews - practising just things like family feasts etc.

 

Todd. Have you considered the story of the Israelites in the desert.
We read that 600000 armed Hebrew men between the ages of 20 and 50 left Egypt. That gives us a population figure agreed by most of about 3 million. Remember that in those days many men under 20 had already been married for several years and had started a family.
As we know that they had large families, and taken into account the infant mortality rate, lets use 6 members in a family. that gives us 500,000 families. We are told that God provided 'bread from heaven' - whatever that was. He also provided quail. 1 quail for 6 people is enough for a couple of mouthfuls. But lets leave it at that. 500000 quail per day = 3 million quail per week - we're not counting Sabbat of course. Fine. But they are in the desert or even scrubland. 500000 families all seeking scarce vegetation to cook the Quail?.
A modern city with 3 million people has to have a sophisticated water system. A split rock in a desert has none. Much of it would sink into the ground before being gathered.
The route given is impassable in places to such a number.
All that to end up in a land ruled by Egypt.

The Nativity stories contradict each other and ignore the customs and Laws of the day - Roman and Jewish. We end up with the Family in Egypt and Nazareth at the same time. We also end up with probably 100000 people descending on the small town of Bethlehem, all for the census, at the same time. Roman census laws were on property. Did Joseph or the other 20000 (approximately)men actually own property in this small town, particularly as 'David' had been dead nearly 1000 years and with Bethlehem having been through troublesome times, an exile and the dreadful Maccabean period. We know that many people did not return to Palestine and that many had fled to other countries to escape the Babylonians - and earlier the Assyrians.
The stories are facricated to make Jesus a divine messiah. And they were written long after Jesus death.

 

In these times, the variables and their influence on religion are too great and complicated to track. At any rate, the crowd isn't my guide. As for Freud, I know that he is dead. I also know that God lives.

 

I gave you a link, Trevor. You still will not objectively look at the evidence. We will pray that you are released from whatever it is that has you

 

No, you got me pegged wrong Gawd, I don't believe in that biased/racist statement of yours but what I do believe in, is the Creator Almighty God, who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth.

We Read in Scripture:

The Account of Creation

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.[a] 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2 NLT

Footnotes
a. 1:1 Or In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, . . . Or When God began to create the heavens and the earth, . . .

Why I believe in Him it's because He has given us (mankind) His revelations. They can be found in His Best-Selling Book of All-Time, the Christian Holy Bible.

This Christian Holy Bible that contains God's revelations to mankind is the basis of the Christian religion/faith. The Christian faith is grounded in evidence that can be assessed and evaluated. The Christian faith is an evidential faith.

Now Gawd tell me, why do you believe in the atheist religious fairytale that from nothing comes something (universe and everything in it, galaxies, stars, planets, earth, living beings,...etc)? That is such an illogical, absurd statement. The logical statements are, "From nothing, nothing comes" "From something, something comes".

So, it's the "poof" fairytale belief that atheism adheres to. For no apparent reason, no purpose whatsoever there was a day very long ago when "poof" everything magically appeared all by itself...that is some fairytale Gawd but hook, line, sinker you swallowed that fairytale.

It is very hard for me to believe in that atheist fairytale. The atheist' faith is not an evidential faith so it befuddles me Gawd, why you believe is such a faith.

That is just your belief, remember what our friend Kode told us about "beliefs". But obviously you have misinterpreted the Bible. It's because you are incapable to interpret the Scriptures in the Bible correctly. The devil/satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers.

We Read in Scripture:

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 5 You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake. 2 Corinthians 4:4-5 NLT

No, not quite, when I hear the sounds of the words God and Bible, I immediately associate or connect the two words as being synonymous with each other. In the sense that God is the Bible, and the Bible is God or in other words the Bible contains God's revelations to mankind. That's why the Bible is referred to as being the Word of God.

Which essentially means All Scripture, in the OT as well as in the NT is inspired by God.

We Read in Scripture:

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NLT

Ok thanks Gawd and trev for your posts.

 

Thanks Brother Todd for that documentary video you presented. It was very interesting to view. Those experts pretty much conclusively proved that the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of our Lord Savior Jesus Christ with all the scientific analysis/probing they performed to come to that conclusion.

Speaking about trev, he told us after he received some background info he had serious doubts about the religion. He doesn't realize that he was being fed rubbish. It was the works of the devil that got to trev, hook, line, and sinker he took the bait and handed the keys to the devil...such a shame!

 

I read the link and many other reports. You show me just one that suits your purpose. Others point out various reason why it isn't. You don't have the DNA of Jesus. It could be the shroud of many different people crucified. Like the Bible you only use what you want to believe.

You're simply quoting the Bible again. Answer the problems I asked you. If you can't then the rest of your posts are irrelevant.

"From nothing, nothing comes" "From something, something comes".

If you know what 'nothing' is Mitt, you are unique. The subject of 'nothing' has tested the brains of eminent physicists/ scientists and other ists for many years.

NEW YORK — It was all much ado about nothing as physicists and thinkers came together to debate the concept of nothing Wednesday (March 20) here at the American Museum of Natural History.


Summing up.
'Ultimately, the definition of nothing may just be an ever-moving target, shifting with every scientific revolution as new insights show us what we thought was nothing is really something.'
"Maybe nothing will never be resolved," Tyson said.

Well I have given you proven facts and you just ignore them. Such a shame that you cannot be bothered to check your facts and see you are being fed rubbish.
You simply quote a book that has been shown to be in error and full of mystical stories. Truth, history and reality show that. Neither you or Todd can deny, with facts, my posts.
I've shown Todd the reality and impossibility of desert life for 3million people. I've shown the problems with the Nativity stories. Of course you don't the problems because you have never studied the stories against the times. It would not suit you to be questioned in your beliefs. Such a shame. You might learn that Jesus was never in Egypt. That Jesus was probably born in Bethlehem near Nazareth. There was no need to go south to Bethlehem Ephratah as Luke says. In fact it would have been against the Roman Law. You really have no idea.
Glad to show you the real truth Mitt.

 

Yep, exactly you just expressed truth. You don't know that God does not exist, you just believe He doesn't exist.

Ok thanks for your post trev, it was a very truthful statement made by you.

 

Correction on post #1561: It is very hard for me to believe in that atheist fairytale. The atheist' faith is not an evidential faith so it befuddles me Gawd, why you believe in such a faith.

 

Well Mit and Todd. I would have more respect for you if you could at least admit you can't answer my points/questions, of don't understand what the Bibble actually says.

I repeat. The Nativity stories contradict each other and are made up.
Roman census Laws were for tax purposes. Your property was taxed - not a person. There was no PAYE for obvious reasons. Josephs property was in Nazareth. Tribal leader David - if he ever existed - had been dead 1000 year - give or take a century. The whole country had been in turmoil much of that time. You also have the Babylonian invasion when we know that some people fled from Palestine, others were taken captive into Babylon. Many never returned to Palestine, preferring Babylonian life. In the 2nd century we have the Maccabean Kingdom which was chaotic. There was the invasion of the Seluecids under Antiochus Epiphanes who ravaged the country. After he was thrown out the kingdom descended in continuous in-fighting over who should be the High Priest.
The simple truth is that the likelihood of Joseph having any property in Bethlehem Ephratah after 1000 years is zero. Not only that but Nazareth and Bethlehem Ephrata were 90 miles apart. How could he maintain property 4 days walk away from Nazareth. Use your brains and think about it.
Luke's 'heir and lineage of David' is just a ploy to get him to Beth. Eph. to align with Matthews story.
Luke's story would mean that Joseph and heavily pregnant Mary would have to walk for 4 days. The road was rough and dangerous from robbers. Palestine wasn't the peaceful place the Bible shows. They would have to set up camp on the roadside, find firewood to cook any provisions. There were no facilties for human functions. Daylight hours were about 11 hours. That means after a morning meal, packing up etc (1 hour) they would have about 8 hours before setting up camp again for the 2 hours before dark. Mary would probably be able to manage 20 miles per day in her state. But Luke's story does not take into account the Jewish custom of allowing pregnant and weaning mothers relief from any journey - even the important Passover journey. So there would have been no reason for her to go if the story were true.
Matthew uses the OT story of David and his genealogy to bring Jesus into the world in Beth. Eph. It's recognised his genealogy is wrong. But we won't go into that now.
Matthew uses Micah 5 to say that his Messiah would be born there in his attempt to refer it to Jesus.The Hebrew OT does not say the messiah was born in Bethlehem - just that he came from there. And the Hebrew words kimei ‘olam translated by Christianity as 'from forever' mean 'as in days of old'. Some modern translation note this.
Hosea 11.1 is used to send Jesus to Egypt. But there's no mention of Jesus - just Israel. If you add Jesus to the verse then Jesus must be added to the rest of the chapter and worship of idols etc. If you add Jesus to one verse to change its meaning then the Bible becomes a lottery. Anyone can add Jesus to anything.
After Jesus is born Luke follows Jewish rules. Mary must cleanse herself and certain other ritual like circumcision at 8 days, and presenting Jesus at the Temple must be followed.Luke 2. According to Luke's narrative the family would be home in Nazareth in about 6 weeks and declares that JESUS GREW UP AND REMAINED THERE. Note Luke says they RETURNED HOME Luke 2:39-40
Matthew however has Joseph and family go to Egypt at some time. Then he sends them to Nazareth rather than Bethlehem Ephratah for the recorded reason.

GotQuestions will tell you - or rather told me - that Herod heard where Jesus had gone and sent soldiers to catch him. When I pointed out that Joseph would have to travel south through the approaching soldiers on his way to Egypt when 20 miles North from Nazareth lay safety in the Roman Province of Syria, ruled by another, I heard no more. Rome came down heavily on provinces that invaded others. Herod was already in Caesars notebook and would not have dared to send soldiers into Syria. Syria had 3 groups of Roman soldiers held ready for any local problems.

Will you read the above? I doubt it. You've never read or answered before except with quotes from scripture which have nothing to do with it.

 

Of course Avaris contained Canaanite style houses. The Hyksos were a Levantine people from the area of Palestine. There is no evidence that an Exodus ever happened. Didn't you read the post I gave you. The Biblical story was written by scribes in Babylon. That they had no idea of living in the desert is obvious. Why is it that neither you or Mitt think for yourselves.
The Hebrews adapted a lot of Egyptian ways and rituals. Does that make them Egyptian? The Hyksos used what they were used to in their original homeland - Palestine Levant.
Many temples of the time were similar in design but adapted for specific use. Their were many things shared between religions. Some churches today have adapted ancient Jewish ritual and beliefs.
The Jews raise the scroll in front of the congregation before reading. So do Catholic and C of E churches on certain occasions. Using of incense swung around. Purgatory is adapted from the belief of a period of time after death to assess ones life. In the ancient world the Sungod dwelt in the sun and brought life to the earth. In the winter he descended into the underworld and life died. In the spring one day was set aside to welcome the sungod back to bring life. 'He is risen'. There's little new under the sun.
.

 

Sorry trev but you're just misinterpreting Scripture. But you know the more I thought about this Hosea 11:1 issue that you have, I began to remember, I did give you a thorough explanation way back on March 26, 2021, after looking at my notes. And so, I'm going to give you the same explanation again because it's obvious you either don't remember it, or you're still in denial of my explanation and won't accept it, but if that's the case, sorry trev but I'm giving you the same explanation. And so, I'm just going to present everything that was in that post back then. Maybe this time after you really think about it you might finally accept the fact that you have misinterpreted Hosea 11.1 and Matthew 2:15 as it relates to Lord Jesus as being prophecy. Oh, and my Brother Todd liked my post back then because he also knows it was prophecy, I mean it is clearly written in Matthew 2:15. Let's not forget trev, All Scripture is inspired by God.

So, everything below is what I presented back on March 26, 2021.

Ok thanks trev for your post, let me know if you're still in denial.

 

You would have been right at home living with nitwits 6,000 years ago. You believe in a silly fairytale which has grass and fruit trees created before the Sun and the Moon and allof the stars.

This may be too complex for you to understand =https://jekko.com/2015/01/15/8-facts-pillars-creation-will-make-brighter/

 

How so? What statement is that statement contradicting? No, I think you're just not understanding it. Let me first put-up Romans 1:20

We Read in Scripture:

20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Romans 1:20 NLT

Basically the verse is telling us although we can't see God because He is invisible to us, we can see the things in creation He has made, the earth and sky, all the stars at night, and other wonderful things so He has definitely made it evident to us and we can clearly see His invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature and so no one has an excuse not to know Him, not to believe in Him.

Think about it, just seeing all those multitudes of stars at night, they just didn't get there on their own, someone is responsible for putting them there, someone that has to be a mighty extraordinary powerful being to accomplish that amazing feat, that being is the invisible God who we can't see, but nevertheless we do see His invisible qualities, His attributes, a God who possesses eternal power and a divine nature.

Ok thanks JET for your post, I hope I didn't confuse you even more...lol

 

You could count every atom in the universe by hand before you will be able to educate Mitt that 1+1=2.

 

Stop using this tripe. An atheist doesn't have a faith.

 

↑Trevorw2539 said
Have you ever considered that from the beginning of humankind there has been the need for a creator in the minds of man
Injeun replied
No I haven't. In fact, I was born into a non religious home. My life, hobbies, family, traditions, conscience, work, goals, and vices, were the all of me.

Trevorw2539 Then you never ever questioned the world around you and how it started?

 

That's just a speculation/theory that Noah's ark came to ground on Mt. Ararat. I also heard it came to ground on a mountain top in Iran. So, first point to make, we have no idea where it came to ground. And because this true historical event happened several thousands of years ago, it should not be surprising to expect there is nothing left of the ark, being that everything has decomposed and so it will never be discovered.

But anyway, the Bible indicates that the "Pre-flood" world was much different than it is today, and likely to have been of uniform temperature everywhere (except for the poles) The drastic and extreme climatic difference we have today did not exist before the flood. In fact, they are a result of the flood.

The passage below of Psalm 104:6-9 is telling us prior to the flood ("Pre-flood") the mountains were lower, and the valleys higher, but after the flood, God raised the mountains and sank the valleys, this suggests vertical tectonics late in the Flood to drain the floodwaters. And I know there are some who believe this passage is referring to creation, but they are wrong because clearly reading the passage it's rather obvious it's referring to a flood and what flood might it be well none other than the Great Flood of Noah.

We Read in Scripture:

6 You clothed the earth with floods of water,
water that covered even the mountains.
7 At your command, the water fled;
at the sound of your thunder, it hurried away.
8 Mountains rose and valleys sank
to the levels you decreed.
9 Then you set a firm boundary for the seas,
so they would never again cover the earth. Psalm 104:6-9 NLT

Continuing on with my explanation, when God created the animals, He gave them the ability to adapt. God foresaw the entrance of sin, a world gone wrong. God created His creatures with an incredible ability to survive in various climates. Some tropical animals can survive in cooler climates. And some animals that now live in Polar Regions can also survive in warmer temperatures.

These diverse ecosystems did not exist prior to the flood. But prior to the flood, animals most likely lived near Noah’s home. Prior to the flood, the earth may have been one large landmass. New Zealand did not exist in its present location. Our present continents are shaped as a result of re-disposition of flood sediments, and receding flood waters.

After the flood there were land bridges (because of a lower sea level) that connected many of the continents. Years later, the glaciers started to melt and the water level rose. This caused many land bridges to disappear.

The animals that were on these continents would be stuck there. Keep in mind too, that many animals were brought to the United States by explorers. They did not travel there themselves. The same may be true for animals such as the flightless birds of New Zealand.

So, in summary this explanation is reasonable and plausible that can be readily accepted. We know this world is an ever-changing world that goes through cycles. People adapted; animals adapted. People migrated; animals migrated. This event the Great Flood happened several thousands of years ago and so the status quo back then is not the status quo presently on a number of things.

Ok thanks JET for your post.

 

So the world is only a few thousand years old according to the Psalm. You really are sad. You reject all the scientific knowedge, geological knowledge etc. etc. that your god has given us just to try and prove your point. We know the world changes very slightly over many thousands of years, but not to that extent. We can even measure the rising of the Himalayas as the Indian continent collides with the Asian continent pushing the mountains higher. The collision was at least 35million years ago. Even before that the continents weren't flat. Volcanos have existed almost since the world began 4 billion plus years ago.
Of course you could say that satan has blinded their eyes but that would mean Christian scientists etc. have been led astray. Dear, dear.
You may have knowledge of the Bible, but lack understanding.